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The Bugle badge and numerals
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: The Bugle badge and numerals  Reply with quote

I am sure that many of us are aware of this General order in 1814 about numerals being placed below the Bugle Badge on the caps of Riflemen and Light Infantry:



In 2/95 we have had some discussion over the years about this - when or if - it was adopted by the 95th and if so in what manner.
We have buttons from the period which show the numerals placed between the strings of the bugle.



The same style of Bugle and numerals is found on the Forlorn Hope medal of Sjt John Himbury in 1813.  So period sources are depicting the 95 numerals so placed but was that adopted for the Regimental cap??

So - what we would like to see is any evidence or images of Bugle badges and numerals - either before 1814 or shortly after.

Over to you chaps - get digging!
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th Cacadores by Dighton 1812


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Obadiah
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the image that Ben has just posted in our archive of some recently dug cap badges shows a 5th Cacadores, this had the number within the strings of the bugle horn.

Dave
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Dighton's Riflemen behind rocks.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Durrant wrote:
From Dighton's Riflemen behind rocks.


That's good Paul - it certainly shows the numerals 95 but its an odd depiction with the Bugle badge up on the cockade and a stovepipe with cords - though the peak is correctly square.

A few more contemporary
images albeit not cap badges;

Frontispiece  to Wheeler :



Belt plate 43rd:


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John Waller
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Durrant wrote:
From Dighton's Riflemen behind rocks.


Very odd. It's either a stovepipe with belgic cords or a belgic with the cockade and tuft in the wrong place. Bugle horn badge on the cockade as per line regt light companies.
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddie wrote:

...its an odd depiction with the Bugle badge up on the cockade and a stovepipe with cords - though the peak is correctly square.

John Waller wrote:

Very odd. It's either a stovepipe with belgic cords or a belgic with the cockade and tuft in the wrong place. Bugle horn badge on the cockade as per line regt light companies.


Everything about that bloody Dighton pix is odd...
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Neibelungen
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My general  feeling would  be that the  order  of Dec 1814 would  become the accepted norm for the next  issue  of  plates  and  caps, which  from memory would  be every 2 years in the case  of the metalwork.

It was normally accepted that  current stocks and supply could be  used  until the required time to issue replacements came around, as writing  off existing stocks that were not the  property  of the crown (ie the colonels and out  of the troopers reckonings) was an  unfair imposition

In that sense  it's  unlikely that it would be seen to  apply widely until around  1817 when all  troops would have received  new issue  of caps of the new pattern ordered  in 1816.

You may have got some issued  earlier when  re-equiping,  but  generally  it is unlikely that a whole new badge would have been devised and manufactured before June 1815
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and in 1816 we loose our 95th number.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the 1814 Order merely ratified a practice which some units had already unofficially adopted as there are images which predate the Order which shows numerals with bugle badges on caps.

The 1816 shako/cap  -according to Barthorp  - 'British Infantry Unforms since 1660 ' page 64 indicates a different Shako plate was then introduced to the Line -  the Rifles and LI kept the Stringed Bugle but placed the numerals above it on the cockade - in the case of the RB the Battalion number  went on the cockade.
Thus between Dec 1814 and 1816 there is not a large window of opportunity at all for the Order to have been adopted.
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khazzard2000
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't trust one detail on that Dighton painting. I think he's making it all up.

Eddie, there is at least one image confirming to Barthorp's description.


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Eddie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kieran
Do you have a date for that  ? I think its one that Rob Y was describing to me a short while back.
Do you have more of the image  - as an aside I want to see the style of sword the Sjt is wearing.
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Obadiah
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the complete image Kieran shows is of an Rifle Brigade Serjt {3rd Batt} and is dated 1816 and is on display in Edinburgh Castle.  



Dave
[url=http://postimg.org/image/x9f9hz035/][img]http://s8.postimg.org/x9f9hz035/Rifle_Bde_1816.jpg[/img][/url]
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obadiah wrote:
This is the complete image Kieran shows is of an Rifle Brigade Serjt {3rd Batt} and is dated 1816 and is on display in Edinburgh Castle.  



Dave

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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sympathetic to Neilbelungen's hypothesis. Any changes would be expected to occur at the next issue. This was accepted. So when was the next issue?

The 1/95th were issued new 1806 pattern caps in April 1813. The other battalions had an issue of the 1812 cap at the same time.

The 1806 cap was intended to last one year for the felt  and two years for the metal badge. So in theory, by 1814 the 1/95th should have had a new cap issue of belgics. The old badges would be current if the numerals were seperate- we are not aware of a change of style, unless the numerals were an integral joined part to the buglehorn.

Im inclined to speculate that the numerals would have been seperate. This would mean that the universal buglehorn plate could continue, without the need for new dies for each regiment. Just a guess based on cost considerations.

So the 1/95th should have had an issue of caps in early 1814, but the order for numerals comes on 28.12.1814 AFTER the issue of kit for 1814 should have arrived. The new belgic cap was issued with a cap cover, and, as a result, the felt as well as the other parts were expected to last for two years, so the next issues after the order for numerals should have been as follows:

1/95th: Dec 1816 (two years from 1814 issue)

2/95th and 3/95th: Dec 1815 (Two years from 1813 issue)

Under these circumstances, the issue of numeral badges or numerals to add to badges, could only have occured as an extra issue apart from the regular cap chain of supply.


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