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In search of the "Belgic"
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Ben Townsend
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Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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Location: Wessex.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:03 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

To the best of my knowledge, the claim originates with Lawson. In fact he merely suggests it as a possibility. Four years ago, I began asking the questions you are asking now. Where is the evidence for the no-change theory. In that time not one piece of evidence has come up other than those Lawson provided, or I found. The evidence from Lawson was that CHS and George Jones depicted both the 95th and 52nd in the 1806 cap post 1812. I have suggested several reasons why this might be so. I have pointed out that both of these artists also portrayed light infantry in the 1812 cap for 1815. There now appear to be two camps, those who accept the evidence and have adjusted their expectations and those who prefer a non-evidential position in the face of reason. If that sounds confrontational, it's because I have long grown bored of re-presenting the evidence in the face of nothing substantial from the other side.

Great image btw!
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John Waller
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Shako-Pattern-Waterloo-Military-Hat-house-Clearance-Find-/401190717620?hash=item5d68d488b4:g:qsEAAOSwzaJX3lrl

What do you think? I'm thinking nice old copy.
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't see any reason to class it as anything except a re-enactor's cap. Some of the re-enactor's kit from the 1990s is better than stuff today. I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that the standards in the hobby aren't improving as it shrinks.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Waller wrote:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Shako-Pattern-Waterloo-Military-Hat-house-Clearance-Find-/401190717620?hash=item5d68d488b4:g:qsEAAOSwzaJX3lrl

What do you think? I'm thinking nice old copy.


Can't see its that good John - the felting looks pilled and rubbed like cheap hobby felt and there is a total  absence of a leather sweatband - the originals or claimed original 'Belgics' I have seen, and also I have close up photos of those in the KGL collection - they always have a leather sweatband though the method of attachment varies.
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Neibelungen
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks  like the usual theater made approach..  design to  have an appearance but non  of the actual  characteristics of an original.

Put together  in what seems most convenient and with whats easily available.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



This is the cap attributed to the Coldstream formerly in the Cotton collection and now at Musee D'lArmee Brussels. The construction of the false front interests me, especially as this is an Other Ranks cap .
The edge binding appears to be a fabric tape - the torn threads are apparent. The exposed stitching appears to be a natural undyed  thread - but there are two lines of stitching apparent and I cannot work out quite what is happening there.
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Neibelungen
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting  image.

It appears to have a badge center very similar to a late victorian  pagri badge (an  elongated rayed star with raised spines and ribs).
Whereas the known 1800-14 and 1829 patterns for  O/R's  used a very plain rayed form.
ie the shape copies the officer's form seen  on  both the crossbelt and  shako plate. (mounted separately in silver with a gilt enameled garter).

My  own feeling is that it may well be a later reproduction plate rather than  an original and based off the known officers examples.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is the double line of stitching which I cannot understand - the stitching towards the outer edge would appear to have been UNDER the edge binding - could it be two layers of felt nave been stitched together to give the upstand of the false front more strength ?

Is the edge binding stitched on with off white thread ? That would be very difficult to hide against the black edge  - and would look a mess at the back of the upstand.
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Neibelungen
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It  is  possible there was a wire  or thin reed sewn down to the outer edge, though this isn't something  I would expect to  see on hats of this type or date.
However the foot guard's shako  were  originally designed with the idea  of a brass binding  instead  of tape to  the front plate, so  may have substituted a wire support  when it was changed.

Linen thread often has a habit of reflecting light back quite sharply in photographs as well as our expectation  of  coloured threads being the norm these days.
On  officer's  items coloured silk thread is more common, but on O/R's  clothing almost everything  is done  in  natural white or brown  linen thread. Even blackened cartridge boxes are stitched  in white
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Neibelungen - yes - good points - did not think about a wire support that would explain the outer edge stitching.  The universal use of a natural linen thread would be economically sensible but difficult to disguise against the black of the cap - but perhaps that is what we should expect to see for OR stuff
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Neibelungen
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Often when  you wax the threads they could   used tinted wax,  which helps to  reduce the contrast.  
Red,  blue and black wax  and you can do  almost anything and  it's a lot cheaper than getting dyed threads.

Visually,  seeing the threads wasn't a problem as  it was expected, so  you actually wouldn't notice  it in the same way as you do today.  Plus it's  often  prick  stitches so  they disapear quite well into  the fabric or collect the fibres  around them.  
Age tends to  make them re-appear  a lot more to.
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Richard Warren
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er, sorry to go back a few years in this thread with nothing useful to add, but a quick query -

Eddie, Neibelungen - that JSAHR article listing the Carlton house pattern headgear - does it imply that the surviving Prince's patterns were headgear only, or did they include garments?
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard - the article states " Much less known is the fact that when the collection was still housed at Carlton House.....it contained a very large number of military uniforms and pieces of equipment. These are described in the manuscript catalogue of the collection prepared by Benjamin Jutsham, Inspector of Household Deliveries and Keeper of the Prince's Armoury which is known today as the Carlton House Catalogue. "
The author makes initial reference to the Royal Collection at Windsor Castle so I presume the Catalogue is housed there.
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"Far the calling bugles hollo,
High the screaming Fife replies,
Gay the files of scarlet follow:
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been there and viewed the catalogues. They are in HM's private library which was rather wonderful and stretched my security limit to the limit. Luckily they didn't find out about the tuck shop raids in '76 and let me in. So any questions fire away.
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Richard Warren
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you both!

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