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khazzard2000
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:46 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

hi guys, i have put together a small article (most of it is actually Mr Packer's words) on canteens to go out to the 3/95th as a whole. Please take a look and point out any blunders. Cheers.

http://www.95thrifles.com/95th/forum/index.php?topic=797.0
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kieran, all I would say, on a brief read-through is that Pierre Turner says, and I have also found this to be the case, that the vast majority of surviving canteens, albeit most of them are mid C19th, have no painted markings, those he illustrates being the exception rather than the rule. This would lead me to the conclusion that the markings ought to be minimal or absent. However, accepting that we re-enactors are, as a rule, tarts, and I don't except myself from that, some sort of marking seems inevitable; its not like the uniform leaves us much room for self-expression!
Your marking options seem ok to me, as do those we propose to adopt. Paul, perhaps you could post some more pics from the AWI canteens in the Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution. I think they are rebel canteens as we only adopted the barrel canteen after admiring it during this conflict, but they give some idea of markings.
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Frank Packer
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've sent this to Kieran already, but may be of interest to this board generally, regarding marked/unmarked canteens...

Regarding the possibility of unmarked canteens, I recently re-discovered this in a recommendation from a Board of General Officers:

"The Board having taken into consideration the numerous deficiencies which occur in most Regiments, in the equipment of Canteens and Haversacks, the frequent supply of which is attended with so great expence to the Public, take the liberty of suggesting, that some general Regulation should be made for obviating these inconveniences, by which Soldiers should be required to preserve in a serviceable state their Canteens and Haversacks, as well as every other Article of Equipment; and any deficiencies, arising from carelessness or neglect, they should be required immediately to make good.-- This very desirable object might certainly be attained, by frequent Regimental and Company inspections, when any damages would... [end of page -- no further pages copied]"

[Board of General Officers, Miscellaneous Reports, 29th June 1811. NA PRO WO7/56,p.100]

This seems to suggest that from 1808 to at least 1811, there is no system in place to keep track of or account for the canteens and haversacks given out to the men; and presumably no process for returning these items nor inspecting them on return, as no one seems to know who has what or in what condition it is. There would be little point in the issuing department marking them under these circumstances, and this appears to agree with the large numbers of unmarked canteens which you have noted. Marking would be more a matter of an individual not wanting to lose something useful, than official policy.

And just to mess with everyones head -- a canteen which came up for auction several years ago.  No provenance, IIRC.

FWIW
Frank

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Drew
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ref to Franks picture:

Since all I have for reference to canteens is Turner and it's artwork I have a few comments.

I see this canteens as the 1854 General Service issue (listed in Turners book), the reason for this are:

1.  The spout of the canteen is squared (1812 is chamfered).

2.  The iron keepers a located on the 4th oak panel (1812 is located closer to the intersection of the 3rd and 4th)

3.  The circular board is chamfered in towards its contents.

Two things spring to mind, either what we are looking at is someone playing tricks and placing GR on the canteen for giggles or that Turner has called this type of canteen by the wrong name, i.e. the 1854. In the blurb under the canteen it states that "This pattern of water bottle or canteen came into use in the last years of the eighteenth century...", can you see where I am coming from?
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We all agree that the vast majority of canteens extant are unmarked, but, perhaps because of this, our interest is drawn to those that are marked. The fashion for the water barrel canteen appears to have come back from North America with the Regulars who served there, and there is a huge quantity of canteens in North America running from AWI to ACW, many are marked, often with unit designations, sometimes with manufacturers marks and owners' numbers/initials/doodles, showing that this was common whence said fashion originated.
As we know, the regimental system fosters and propagates marks of distinction and the surface of the canteen seems too good an opportunity to let pass up. I think that it is entirely probable that units marked their canteens at some level between regimental and company. There is evidence that in addition to individual's issued kit, extra haversacks and canteens were kept as 'company property' these items being issued to official foragers as needed, and as with all other company property, it was ultimately the Captains' responsibility to ensure the property was accounted for. If you were he, or his QM, would you not slap some paint on the damn things?
All these things point towards a suppositional possibility of markings for our canteens, and although I know we are not on the steadiest of ground, the desire for regimental distinction is strong in re-enactment units, just as it is in real regiments, though perhaps less well grounded, and I think that some kind of marking is likely to happen in the 2/95th.  Smilie_PDT
For those who feel that this is letting down our high standards of proof  and demonstration, I crave your indulgence for this uncharacteristic flourish of artistic licence.  If it comes down to it, we have no positive proof that the 95th carried barrel canteens yet, that being another supposition..
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The Sarge!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben, my dear sir, you are indeed correct.

just a case of all the riflemen getting together and deciding based on the information to hand and best guess as to what we want.

then the rest as they say will be history.
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havercakelad
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A sad, but realistic arguement for marking up kit is of course the practical one of displaying ownership and making it harder for items being carried off ( mistakenly or otherwise ). I know of one re-enactor who went to a Waterloo event independantly of his unit and had a canteen and other kit 'vanish' from camp.
John
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



For those who are concerned, or who may be concerned with the reproduction of GR markings. Here is a perfectly provenanced example from 1810, found in WO papers at Kew.

Apologies for the poor state of the photography, this was taken a few years ago, and the file size is small by present standards.
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Billfred
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben Townsend wrote:


For those who are concerned, or who may be concerned with the reproduction of GR markings. Here is a perfectly provenanced example from 1810, found in WO papers at Kew.

Apologies for the poor state of the photography, this was taken a few years ago, and the file size is small by present standards.



So nothing like the ones we use/used to use!


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