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"With carried arms"
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:01 am    Post subject: "With carried arms"  Reply with quote

I have come across this reference to a form of salute to Officers in a number of period books - but what is exactly meant by it in practical ' how to do it' terms ?

Here is an example :

"They are to carry their Arms to all Officers of the Army and Navy, and to present them to all of the former of the rank of Field Officers and upwards."


'...sentries, when Officers in uniform approach their posts, paying them proper attention, by standing steady with carried arms, facing to their proper front"


Standing Orders for 3rd West Yorks Militia 1809 p  48  49

So how does carry differ from 'shoulder' ???


The 1811 drill manual has 'Carry Arms' as the 14th movement in Manual exercise, which seems progressed to from the position of 'Support Arms'. It seems to be merely going back to  'shoulder'.

Thoughts?
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John Waller
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carry & Shoulder = same thing as far as us line chaps are concerned.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Waller wrote:
Carry & Shoulder = same thing as far as us line chaps are concerned.


John - I think more is conveyed by 'carry' in this instance than merely shoulder arms - or perhaps that is what would be said.     'Carry' in the context I am looking at is a form of salute while carrying arms.

Here is a piece from the 'Green Book'  Regs of the Rifle Corps 1801.

Under the section on Salutes - meeting with Officers:
'.......the salute by applying the hand to the cap ... if without Arms ,
or carrying them smartly with a motion of the left hand to settle the Rifle firm against the shoulder'   ( Rifle men of course right 'shoulder')


'Whenever a Serjeant has occasion to address an Officer, give report etc, if without arms. he raises his right hand with smartness to his cap, drops it to the attention position, and raises it once more on leaving the Officer; if with arms he recovers first, returns it to the carry, and only recovers it again on parting with the Officer'

And this following from the same section on Other Ranks meeting Officers :

'will when a few paces from them, halt, front, and stand at attention. This position at once shewing respect, and a readiness to bear their inspection, if with Arms, the same,  only with the addition of arms firm at the carry



hmmm - 'settles the rifle firm against the shoulder.'.......'recovers 'first and again on parting ...........................'firm at the carry'
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John Waller
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1807 regs has Carry Arms as the 14th movement in the arms drill, it is preceded by 13.  Support Arms.

Under Sentries it states :- Sentries, posted with shouldered arms, are permitted after to support, but not to slope them - On the approach of an Officer, they immediately carry their arms, and put themselves into their proper position; which is not to be done at the instant he passes, but by the time he is within 20 yards of their post, so that they may be perfectly steady before he comes up.

So it would appear that Carry Arms is a movement from Support Arms. All other movements to shoulder are Shoulder Arms.  In my group we also order Carry Arms from the Slope Arms - must check that one.

The soldier's 'salute' is bracing up at the attention with shouldered arms.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John I think the 'carry' - in salute form is more than just bracing up. Its something more akin to the 'Butt salute' of later times  - where the hand is bought across to slap the butt of the Rifle - a lesser salute than a Present.

Here is an extract from The Standing Orders of the 85th Light Infantry 1813 much like the Green Book quoted above;

p 33 - "The salutes of all Non commissioned officers Buglers and Privates are of two descriptions, with arms and without. The Present, and Carry (and occasionally the Recover) when with arms..."

p34 - "With arms, and when Advanced [i.e on Right shoulder sic]  - upon meeting Officers,the left hand is carried across the body with a smart motion to set the fuzee against the shoulder, and immediately brought back after passing. If arms are sloped, trailed or supported they must be brought back to the Carry.'..............if with arms, he recovers first, returns to the carry, and only Recovers again when parting with the Officer."

p35 "...if with arms, the firelock is placed firmly in the Carry position with the right hand, or as described before, if Advanced"

"All sentries are to Present Arms to all General and Filed Officers and to all other Officers a steady Carry"


I personally interpret all this to mean that there is a definite movement of the right hand - across the body - a 'smart motion' to 'set the firelock firmly against the shoulder' and apparently held there - until the officer has passed - or that right hand is held there as a 'steady' Carry.
We see this type of salute in American Civil war films like 'Glory' - I have yet to look at one of their appropriate drill manuals to compare the movement.
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John Waller
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddie,
          I understand what you mean. We do use the movement(s), usually by our NCOs when reporting to an officer. Can't see it in the 1807 regs though. Possibly varied from regt. to regt.
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Greg Renault
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes a carry is just a carry.

My understanding is that we are discussing various degrees of respect, as signified by specific movements performed by ORs under arms:

1.  Present Arms is the motion that signifies the highest level of respect.  E.g., Sentries present arms to field officers and above; arms are presented when the colours are trooped, and as a general salute by a body of troops.

2. The next lower level of respect performed under arms is the salute.  When the soldier is at the right shoulder light infantry/advanced arms carry, the left hand is brought over to the firearm on the right.  This is done whenever a hand salute to the cap would otherwise be performed by a soldier not under arms.  As this motion must be done from the position of shoulder arms, rifle and light infantry ORs that happen to be at Support Arms need to come to Shoulder Arms before they can salute.  So they “Carry Arms” to come to the shoulder, then perform the salute.  Conveniently the last motion of Carry Arms ("settle the Rifle firm against the shoulder") only needs to be held in order to perform a salute.

The equivalent salute for soldiers under arms from the battalion companies, whose carry is on the left, seems to be Recover Arms.  As Eddie points out, this form of salute is also prescribed for rifles in the 1801 Green Book, but is supplanted by the left hand salute in the 1813 SOs of the 85th.  I think this reflects a general, gradual trend in our period towards simplification.

3. The position of Shoulder Arms is the most basic of these signifiers of respect.  When an officer below the rank of field officer approaches, sentries under arms come to attention, face the officer, and come to the position of shoulder arms to show respect.  Enlisted men under arms always approach an officer at shouldered arms for the same reason.  (A notable case from the ACW occurred at Appomattox when the Federal troops shouldered arms to demonstrate respect to the soldiers of the Army of Northern Virginia as the latter stacked arms in surrender.)   If the soldier happens to be at support arms at the outset of all this, he will need to assume the position of shoulder arms; the command for this in the manual exercise is to “Carry Arms”.  In this situation note that Carry Arms is not in-itself a motion of respect; rather, it is a motion executed in order to come to the position of Shoulder Arms, which is the position that signifies respect.

I believe the phrases “firm at the carry” and “steady carry” that Eddie highlights likely refer to the soldier simply being at attention during the above, rather than to a distinct motion.  That in case #2 above, the salute immediately follows the movement from Support Arms to Shoulder Arms (a movement called “Carry Arms”) muddies things nicely. As John Waller points out, the 1807 sergeant’s manual states that on the approach of an officer, sentries with supported arms immediately carry their arms.  I suspect if the boys at Horse Guards wanted a separate motion in all this, they would have described it in no uncertain terms in the manual exercise.
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Last edited by Greg Renault on Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points John and Greg.
I must say however that if the 'Carry' is exactly the same as the Shoulder then we would expect the instruction to read that the officer is to be acknowledged with the Shoulder. The soldier would likely be in the position much of the time anyway. There would be no point in making a distinction like 'Carry' at all. I also suspect that the 'recover' is merely reverting back to the shoulder.
Its certainly a very valid point though that the 'Carry' is not mentioned as a form of salute in the drill manual -  amazing how something so simple can be so confusing. Interesting though.
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Greg Renault
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the 'Carry' is not mentioned as a form of salute in the drill manual

Nor is it mentioned in the section of the General Regs on "Compliments to be Paid...."  But I think it is safe to infer, based on the quotes discussed in this thread, that when a soldier is required to come to attention as a matter of deference to the military hierarchy, if the soldier is under arms the position of attention includes the weapon being carried at Shoulder Arms.

The use of "Carry Arms" as equivalent to "return to the position of Shoulder Arms" is found in drill manuals throughout the 18th & 19th centuries.   For example, the 1792 Manual and Platoon Exercises states,

"The men must be taught likewise to support arms at three motions....  In carrying arms from the support, the motions are exactly reversed." (pp. 10-11)

The section on sentries from the same manual states,

"Sentries posted with shouldered arms, are permitted afterwards to
support, but not to slope them.--On the approach of an officer, they immediately carry their arms...." (p.12)

The language is less precise than in later manuals, but still similar, and clearly indicates that Carry Arms means a return to the position of Shoulder Arms.


On a related matter, John Waller noted
Quote:
In my group we also order Carry Arms from the Slope Arms - must check that one.

This is exactly what the 1824 manual says to do.  Nothing really before that, as Slope Arms and Trail Arms were not included in the 1807 M&PE.  Suasso, in his 1816 A Treatise on the British Drill, notes that these movements were nevertheless in common usage.  Like other practical elements found in the various rifle & light infantry manuals, they were included in the postwar version of the M&PE.
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Greg Renault
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote




39th Foot in the Crimea by Fenton. OK it's 40 years beyond our era. The Other Rank is clearly performing a salute with the firelock which is not a Present. Anyone seen a mid 19th century drill book to establish what they called this action?
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Greg Renault
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddie,
Here is a period picture of a sergeant at an alternate version of Advanced Arms, with the musket on the left side  (Atkinson, Royal Volunteers, 1798).  Your Crimean pic looks like someone in the same position, performing the salute under arms.



Messy, I know.  I've never seen manual exercise language that describes this alternate carry.  Atkinson illustrates the familiar right side version of Advanced Arms on plates 58, 59, and 60, so I don't think plate 74 is an error.  I suspect that it illustrates a "customary practice" (like Slope Arms or Trail Arms) that was not specifically described in the official manual exercise. Does anyone have anything more on this version of Advanced Arms?
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Greg Renault
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Greg Renault
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having reread the Manual & Platoon exercises, I realize that my terminology in the above posts is not correct.  Upon closer reading it seems clear that the position of a soldier under arms is referred to in the manuals as carried arms, not that of "shouldered arms".  Examples from the 1804 M&PE:


[/u]

So "Shoulder Arms" is just the command to move from ordered arms to the standard carry, not the term for the carry itself.  Once arms are held at the shoulder in the basic position of a soldier under arms, they are said to be "carried".  Thus, when arms are in some alternate hold--sloped, supported, or advanced (for battalion companies)--the command to return to the standard carry is (duh!) "Carry Arms."  This seems to apply to both the battalion companies' left-shoulder carry, and the lights' and rifles' right shoulder carry.

Just picking nits here.  The main point still holds: that respect is signified by arms being carried.
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Greg Renault
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Greg Renault
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another period illustration of the left-shoulder advanced arms carry with the barrel out.  This portrays a grenadier sergeant of the 7th Regt. (Royal Fuzileers) from the series drawn by E. Dayes, etched by Hodges, tinted by the young JMW Turner, and printed in London by Capt. James Hewgill in 1792. This image is in the Anne SK Brown collection.



I have yet to find a period description of this alternate carry.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg Renault wrote:

2. The next lower level of respect performed under arms is the salute.  When the soldier is at the right shoulder light infantry/advanced arms carry, the left hand is brought over to the firearm on the right.  This is done whenever a hand salute to the cap would otherwise be performed by a soldier not under arms.  As this motion must be done from the position of shoulder arms, rifle and light infantry ORs that happen to be at Support Arms need to come to Shoulder Arms before they can salute.  So they “Carry Arms” to come to the shoulder, then perform the salute.  Conveniently the last motion of Carry Arms ("settle the Rifle firm against the shoulder") only needs to be held in order to perform a salute.

The equivalent salute for soldiers under arms from the battalion companies, whose carry is on the left, seems to be Recover Arms.  As Eddie points out, this form of salute is also prescribed for rifles in the 1801 Green Book, but is supplanted by the left hand salute in the 1813 SOs of the 85th.  I think this reflects a general, gradual trend in our period towards simplification.



That the Recover was used as a form of Salute with arms was unknown to me as it is part of the loading and firing procedure.
Suasso in his Treatise on the British Drill' 1816' describes the movement and use p 108;

"Turn the piece by a quick jerk of the left hand, so as to bring the guard to the front, and the lock at the height of the left shoulder , both hands seizing the firelock as it is turned, the right hand at the swell of the butt, and the left above the lock, the left elbow being bent. and the part of the arm between this elbow and the hand placed close along the piece, both thumbs pointing to the muzzle. It is in the position of Recover Arms that a soldier when with his firelock, is at all times to address himself and speak to an officer; and it is likewise the position taken when the command 'Recover Arms' is given as a preparative to the dismissal of a body of men."

Suasso further explains that this Recover differs from the 'make ready' Recover as in this case the firelock is placed in the hollow of the left shoulder not opposite the left side of the face.
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JBristoll(60th)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The recover can also be found in the Egerton 1804 manual, Page 14 and Fig.2 Plate 7.

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