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Forage Caps
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:00 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

There were two artists named Langendijk - Father and son possibly ? The elder chap produced work in the 1790s and they do look pretty dreadful.

However Jan Langendijk's work seem well detailed to my eye and I see no carelessness in his depictions. In the Bivouac scene we see forage caps turned down by some soldiers which  argues close observation of soldiers and camp life. The Greatcoats and how they are worn, the facing colour in the Sjts sash. mess tins etc - all good. The only ambiguous thing are the caps but I am not going to dismiss even that.

If this Langendijk copied other artists then I would love to see these sources - Ola?

Like Ben I have a great interest in the occupation style prints produced by these 'foreign' artists. Yes some detail seems very doubtful - and we must be wary - but like the story of Waterloo we now have a better picture of the whole battle because new accounts have emerged from other participant Nations.

And Happy New Year to all our readers!  
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Eddie, although Ola has convincingly demonstrated instances of this artist lifting and borrowing before, on this particular occasion I think we have all the hallmarks of direct observation. And without a clear 'donor' to ID, we ought to do the artist justice, and allow that this is from his own sketches.
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John Waller
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some details are questionable

The only cap plate/badge seen is a bugle on the Sgt's cap but he has a centre company tuft and a spontoon. Where are the other cap plates and tufts? Are some supposed to be wearing covers? No cap cords on show and the tufts are mounted centrally not on the side.

Knapsacks - brown in colour. Regulation says they should be black by this period.

One soldier has his belts on in the wrong order.

Possibly sketched from life and finished from memory?
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote




Atkinson image.  From Troops on the March
Watercolour 1808 (Anne S.K. Brown Military Collection)

The chap on top the cart. Cap white with facing colour green and tassel. Undress coat with pointed green cuffs.



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Eddie
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Waller wrote:
Some details are questionable

The only cap plate/badge seen is a bugle on the Sgt's cap but he has a centre company tuft and a spontoon. Where are the other cap plates and tufts? Are some supposed to be wearing covers? No cap cords on show and the tufts are mounted centrally not on the side.

Knapsacks - brown in colour. Regulation says they should be black by this period.

One soldier has his belts on in the wrong order.

Possibly sketched from life and finished from memory?



Absolutely agree John -as with most Occupation images the details are certainly often 'questionable' but they throw up other detail and beg the question what is artistic license and what is accurate ? Even the revered Hamilton Smith prints have anomalies - the 87th at Barossa wearing Belgics and Dragoons in helmets never issued - is nothing sacred !!
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havercakelad
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No proof that infantry in 1813 wore the knitted cap that resembles the one in Bankfield , but clear proof of its adoption among some British staff officers as well as cavalry.

<iframe frameborder="0" scrolling="no" style="border:0px" src="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HUMnAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA40&ots=aiuRtbEE1q&dq=landeck%2B22%20august%2B1813&pg=PA41&output=embed"
width=500 height=500></iframe>
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OJM
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddie wrote:
If this Langendijk copied other artists then I would love to see these sources - Ola?


Haven't analysed the British motifs in depth, but at least he'd have been in a possible geographical position to observe British troops in 1814-15.

The same applies to his Batavian and French consulate ones, as well as Dutch ones from 1815.


Apart from the more obscure Scandinavians (the only right thing is coat colours, barely), the best way of gauging his potential for unreliability is looking at the "Polish Lancer" depictions in the Royal Collections, or the details on his French Chevau Legers officer for that matter.

His 1815 Prussian, Austrian, Saxon and Russian infantry also appears dubious or clearly imaginary mixed with a few older sources or own observations of a few units.

His early Prussian depictions are most likely based on one of the multiple 1790s series, Horvath, Ramm or others.

To the best of my knowledge he would not have had first hand looks at Wurtemberg troops either, unless he traveled during the period, and likely these are also copied from some of the (extremely good) other images of these made at the time.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just come across a reference to Forage caps in 'Fusilier Cooper', Leonaur version p 88;
"... By jumping down amongst the rocks my dress cap fell off, having my forage cap in it , and thus I was left bare headed in the blazing sun."  Pampeluna July 1813.

Which brings to mind the submission of 14th Feb 1812 re: dropping the iron plate that was to go into the top of the Belgic;
"...to preserve the head from the cut of a sabre, will equally be accomplished by the Soldier carrying his foraging cap in the vacancy of his Regimental cap..."

Now there is not that much space in a cap body about 6 1/2" high when you take into account the room left by the head! Some styles of forage cap would certainly not fit inside.
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddie wrote:
Now there is not that much space in a cap body about 6 1/2" high when you take into account the room left by the head! Some styles of forage cap would certainly not fit inside.


I feel an experiment coming on!
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The submission mentioned by Eddie above was approved by the Prince Regent, so passed into regulation at that point. Strictly speaking, it was about dumping the plates, but I agree that the forage cap ought to be carried inside the regimental cap. I've done it in the past, and after ten minutes you forget its there. In the summer its unpleasantly hot.


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