2/95th Rifles Forum Forum Index 2/95th Rifles Forum
Forum site for 2nd Battalion 95th Rifles Re-enactment Society
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Join! (free) Join! (free)  
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Front pockets

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    2/95th Rifles Forum Forum Index -> General Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Please Register and Login to this forum to stop seeing this advertising.






Posted:     Post subject:

Back to top
jdfletcher24
Forum Recruit


Joined: 31 Aug 2016
Posts: 5



PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:19 pm    Post subject: Front pockets  Reply with quote

This is possibly old hat but, for interest, I ran across this picture of the North York Militia from The Costume of Yorkshire by George Walker dated 1814 which shows a clear rendering of the front pocket(s) on their coat.  This matches the description in the 1802 Warrant:
Para 43.) Serjeants Coats of Rifle Corps in Europe, &c.
Serjeants of Rifle Corps are to be of Dark Green Cloth without Lining, etc...    ...The Pockets pretty high on the Fronts of the Jackets and the Welts set on sloping
.
Handy place to keep the powder horn in action but perhaps a bit closer to the pan (or pipe) then we might prefer when shooting nowadays?


Also, interesting rendition of a volunteer Baker which looks similar to the Ketland rifles with block rear sight and plain butt without box.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul Durrant
Site Admin


Joined: 04 Jun 2007
Posts: 1438


Location: Walthamstow, NE London

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably powder flask, rather than horn. We make our uniforms with the pockets just so.


Description of powder flask from the 'Amended Copy of the ‘Descriptive View of the Clothing and Appointments of the Infantry’ dates 22nd May, 1802.”
Pouch and Pouch Belt, Horn, etc., for Rifle Corps.
[“1 December 1800 and Date of Establishmt.,”]
"... a small Powder Flask kept on the Breast and suspended from the Neck by a Green Cord."

Compared with Norcott's 1816 report:

Of The Small Copper Powder flask.
"Each Non- Commissioned Officer and Soldier was also supplied with this flask, generally holding Thirty rounds of Powder. A Green Cord fastened it to two rings, "which were fix'd to the mounting upon the neck of the flask," and was slung around the Soldier's Collar. The flask was sometimes carried in a pocket made on the left breast of the Jacket, and at others hung by his Side. The mouthpiece screwed on the orifice, and the measure of powder was thus supplied by pulling back the spring and tilting the flask. The soldier loaded from this flask and it was replenished from the Magazine horn as required."


The horns (which would have been slung over the cartridge box) was more of a magazine with the intent of re-stocking the brass flask. Our evidence points to these horns being ditched by the 95th after Corunna. There are suggestions that these flasks where as dangerous as you point out, and even these discontinued:

Extracts from a letter from Horse Guards, 26th June 1826

The letter was a response to an officer in the Rifle Brigade who had written to the Commander-in-chief 'recommending the re-issue of loose Powder and Copper Flasks...for the purpose of arriving at more accuracy'...

The reply letter explained that His Royal Highness 'authorized investigation into the subject' and went on to explain the findings and the reasons that they would not be going back to that method;

"...that however important it may be to arrive at the accuracy in Rifle Firing...He [HRH] is persuaded that such advantage could not be gained in the mode you suggest without being subject to the inconvenience which has already been experienced, and which has caused the discontinuance of the equipment that you now seek to re-establish.

In the first place it has appeared from the oldest practical soldiers in the Rifle Brigade that the Copper Flasks were discontinued on service in the Peninsula in consequence of the Accidents, and the Personal injuries thereby sustained, from their constant liability to blow up in Action.

2ndly it appears that after the Barrel of the Rifle has been soiled by Firing, it becomes almost impracticable to drive home the loose Ball and the greased Rag and the prospect of this difficulty together with the apprehension that the loose powder in the flask will blow up in action appears practically to have induced the soldiers to expend their loose ammunition first - and hence the advantage of having a reserve for Rifle practice is lost to the soldier.

It is quite evident, from the testimony afforded on this subject, that the above are the primary causes which have led to the discontinuance of loose ammunition in the Rifleman's equipment..

...Under all these circumstances His Royal Highness cannot concur in the expediency of your recommendation, that the Copper Flasks should be re-issued to the Rifle Brigade..."


WO3/413 as taken from De Witt Bailey's British Military Flintlock Rifles 1740-1840. Mowbray 2002, p153-4
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ben Townsend
Forum General


Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 3577


Location: Wessex.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Hopefully you can see the detail of the recreated jacket's breast-pockets on this photo from Devious Wolf Photography.
_________________
                                                           
Rifleman LaLa
I'm part of the problem
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jdfletcher24
Forum Recruit


Joined: 31 Aug 2016
Posts: 5



PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that photo is just showing off!

Thanks for the excellent info Paul, the Extracts from a letter... 26th June 1826 gives a surprising insight into the professionalism at Horse Guards.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul Durrant
Site Admin


Joined: 04 Jun 2007
Posts: 1438


Location: Walthamstow, NE London

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I recall rightly, there's also an early '20s letter from HG that turns down a request from a leading officer to return to horn, patch and ball after they investigate his request by talking to NCOs who went through the Peninsular War & Waterloo and decide to stay with cartridge (or something to that effect).

I'll see if I can locate it...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ben Townsend
Forum General


Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 3577


Location: Wessex.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horse Guards are conflating the powder horn magazine and the flask. A common problem with most rifle historians even today. The full correspondence compared with Stewart's papers on the subject and the inspection returns (which reveal the copper flask continued to be carried throughout period), shows that it was the powder horn magazine that was abandoned as perilous- Norcott tells us it was never carried on service after Jan 1809. The copper loading flask continued to be used, although resupply on service appears to have been sporadic.


_________________
                                                           
Rifleman LaLa
I'm part of the problem
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    2/95th Rifles Forum Forum Index -> General Forum All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum
Link back to main web site