2/95th Rifles Forum Forum Index 2/95th Rifles Forum
Forum site for 2nd Battalion 95th Rifles Re-enactment Society
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Join! (free) Join! (free)  
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Forage Caps
Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    2/95th Rifles Forum Forum Index -> General Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Paul Durrant
Site Admin


Joined: 04 Jun 2007
Posts: 1438


Location: Walthamstow, NE London

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:22 am    Post subject: Forage Caps  Reply with quote

Here are pics I took of the forage cap in the museum of the New Hampshire Militia, Winchester (http://www.royalhampshireregimentmuseum.co.uk). The only info the museum have on their files is that it was given to them by Royal Hamps sergeants' mess in 1933.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Greg Renault
Forum Rifleman


Joined: 23 Jun 2010
Posts: 86


Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul (or anyone),
Do you know what type of fabric the lining is made of?  I suspect shirting flannel, but cannot tell from the photograph.
_________________
Greg Renault
A soldier should be as attached to, and careful of, his musket, as his mistress. (G.O. 31st December 1788, Bombay Army)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Obadiah
Forum Sergeant


Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 696


Location: Kent

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Greg. It looks more like a serge to me. I see where you are coming from with the flannel but the weave on the cap is much tighter.

Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Greg Renault
Forum Rifleman


Joined: 23 Jun 2010
Posts: 86


Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serge makes sense, as it was used to line the body of the uniform coat, and often used for the sleeves of the waistcoat.  That would account for the twill appearance as well.
_________________
Greg Renault
A soldier should be as attached to, and careful of, his musket, as his mistress. (G.O. 31st December 1788, Bombay Army)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eddie
Forum Lieutenant


Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 797


Location: Devon

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that this would be a good place to put some images of the later style "Grey" forage cap mentioned by Robert Henderson and Keith Raynor in their article on Forage caps on the Warof 1812 website - quote :

"In August 1813, the Deputy Adjutant General at Horse Guards wrote the Inspectors of Army Clothing on a pattern for the infantry forage cap that had been selected:  "I am to acquaint you, that the Grey cap with which this is accompanied, has been approved as a foraging cap for the infantry; and sealed as a pattern to be lodged in the clothing office.  I am at the same time to return the two other foraging caps, and to desire they may be removed, so as to prevent their being in future shewn with the patterns."   Whether the forage cap for the infantry was to be grey or that only the prototype was that colour is unclear."

Here is a detail from an Occupation 1815  print believed NAM:





Another 1815 occupation print detail - A S K Brown collection - note that this is a yellow faced regiment but the hatband is white:




and a modern interpretation from Crown Forces 1812 Drums Canada - who have also used the same grey for collar and cuffs :





It looks similar to the later Crimean forage caps and I think its rather neat. I have not seen any UK reenactors wearing them - perhaps our friends in Canada do?  
Just wondering whether the hats were made out of spare grey trouser cloth ?  Apparently early undress hats were made from off cuts after shortening red coats.
_________________
"Far the calling bugles hollo,
High the screaming Fife replies,
Gay the files of scarlet follow:
Woman bore me, I will rise"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Iain Dubh
Forum Rifleman


Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 53


Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All,
A couple of units on this side of the pond have gone with this type of fatigue hat, including both Light and Centre Companies of the 1st Royal Scots and the 1812 Drums. We have been aiming for "french gray" rather than straight gray, but we have a couple of different interpretations of just what french gray looks like. I have been making them in the same manner as our Kilmarnock Bonnets. Here is an example:



One the author:



... and here is another period shot of one:




If anyone is interested in getting one for your very own, drop me a line... I have sent them as far away as New Zealand!

Aye,
Iain
_________________
42nd Royal Highland Regt, Napoleonics
http://www.the-black-watch-lha.org/1815/
1st Royal Scots, 1812
7th Bn, The Black Watch 1939-45
Burns Battle Bonnets, hand knit Kilmarnock, Hummel, and Fatigue Bonnets for the Highland Soldier
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Obadiah
Forum Sergeant


Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 696


Location: Kent

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You pipped me to the post there Iain. I was going to mention that you and your unit wore this style of cap.

The 33rd over here were a blue/grey coloured cap but theirs is knitted wool and is floppy rather stiffened.

Most re-enactment units over here wear the "pork pie" made in wool cloth of regimental colours.

Answering your point Eddie that in the image you say the regiment has yellow facings but the band on the cap was white. The caps were of a standard issue to the whole of the infantry, so they may have just added their regiments number?

Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Iain Dubh
Forum Rifleman


Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 53


Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
When I said that our Fatigue hats are made in the same manner as our Kilmarnock bonnets, I meant that they are knit and felted. After felting, they ae pretty stiff... you can see in the photos how they stand up on their own.

Aye,
Iain
_________________
42nd Royal Highland Regt, Napoleonics
http://www.the-black-watch-lha.org/1815/
1st Royal Scots, 1812
7th Bn, The Black Watch 1939-45
Burns Battle Bonnets, hand knit Kilmarnock, Hummel, and Fatigue Bonnets for the Highland Soldier
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Obadiah
Forum Sergeant


Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 696


Location: Kent

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Iain, I couldn't remember if you said you felted your caps or not when you made them.

If the 33rd caps should be made the same I have no idea or is it that some units {or men} mangled or soften them up to stand out from the rest of the Army like what units do with the modern beret?

Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Iain Dubh
Forum Rifleman


Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 53


Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
If they are knitted so they just fit on the head, then there isn't room to felt them (they shrink QUITE a lot) and they are pretty limp. I make them way over-sized so there is plenty of room to shrink and thicken up when they get "waulked". Once I shrink them to the right size, I block them on round forms so they dry to shape. This gets them to the point where they match the line drawing I posted pretty well, which is what I was aiming for.
BTW, some units that are wearing them over here (including the Drummer in the photo posted from the 1812 Drums) wear cap peiced together from broadcloth, but things seem to be changing over (slowly) to knitted caps.

Aye,
Iain
_________________
42nd Royal Highland Regt, Napoleonics
http://www.the-black-watch-lha.org/1815/
1st Royal Scots, 1812
7th Bn, The Black Watch 1939-45
Burns Battle Bonnets, hand knit Kilmarnock, Hummel, and Fatigue Bonnets for the Highland Soldier
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ben Townsend
Forum General


Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 3577


Location: Wessex.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A number of attempts to regulate the infantry fatigue cap were made, for instance,

Board of of General Officers Miscellaneous Reports
Report of the Board established "for the Purpose of reporting Upon the Equipment of the Infantry"
[29th June, 1811 pp.93-104]
[p. 98]
"...It is the Opinion of the Board, that the foraging Cap should be the same for the whole army that it should be made of Black Cloth, with an Oil Skin Crown. A pattern of the proposed Cap accompanies this Report."

WO7/56
and, as referred to by Henderson,
WO3/207, p.80

"Horse Guards, 24th August, 1813
Gentlemen,
I am to acquaint you that the grey cap with which this letter is accompanied, has been approved as a foraging cap for the Infantry: and sealed as a pattern to be lodged in the Clothing Office. I am at the same time to return the two other Foraging Caps, and to desire they may be removed, so as to prevent their being in future, shown with the Patterns.
I have &en (?)
Roc (?) Darling

To the Inspectors of Army Clothing"


To support the idea that a single pattern of undress cap was introduced see the list of pattern items lodged at the pattern rooms 1814,
WO7/54

Return of Articles of Military clothing and equipment laying at this office as patterns. Clothing Board 6 Aug 1814.


1 foraging cap for the line, furnished by Prater, date of its being furnished as a pattern 1813.

Which seems pretty clear regulation wise. However, the occupation images show a variety of undress caps in use by the infantry. Go figure..
_________________

Rifleman LaLa
I'm part of the problem
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eddie
Forum Lieutenant


Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 797


Location: Devon

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting chaps.
I think the 33rd have knitted caps to a akin to the tam o' shanter style based on a extant article in a museum - no doubt John White will confirm.
(I remember seeing a similar Highland bonnet in Inverness museum almost perfectly preserved - having been found in a peat bog at Culloden - I think they even found a crumpled Mckewans beer can along with it!)
So it seems that prior to 1814 the forage caps were many and various and to the preference of individual regiments?
I do not recall seeing the "grey" cap in any image earlier than the 1815 occupation prints. It is fair to assume that units continued wearing their old caps after 1814 until they wore out.
 Perhaps it was the home based 2nd battalions that had the grey caps issued to them first and we know that many of the Waterloo British contingent were 2nd battalions which may be what we are seeing in the occupation prints.

So we wait with bated breath to see if 2/95 will switch to the grey caps in
2014 ?? Ho Ho!  - I bet you wish I hadn't mentioned that!!  q21
_________________
"Far the calling bugles hollo,
High the screaming Fife replies,
Gay the files of scarlet follow:
Woman bore me, I will rise"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ben Townsend
Forum General


Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 3577


Location: Wessex.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no record of a pattern cap prior to this attempt to constitute one in 1814. The only information we have on the intended pattern cap is the colour. (In 1813 the proposed pattern cap was to be black). The shape of any putative cap is very much up for discussion, since the occupation prints show a variety of styles- including the wedge!
_________________

Rifleman LaLa
I'm part of the problem
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
havercakelad
Forum Chosenman


Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 242



PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The caps used in the 33rd stand pretty tall and proud when new. Use and abuse over time can alter the shape they form.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ben Townsend
Forum General


Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 3577


Location: Wessex.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Sean Phillips,

"So, looking at the letters of Wilsons who, among other things, supplied
'kilmarnock' bonnets in the late 18th and early 19th C.

Very few mention Regiments but the main colours mentioned are Blue or
Grey for the bonnet (possibly different descriptions of the same
colour) with 'rings' described as 'diced', 'scarlet', 'white' and
'green' in most cases. There are a couple of exceptions, one order of a
small number of white caps with a red band (probably for a Regimental
Band) and one in pale buff, possibly for a Cavalry Regiment... so, my
conclusion is that contrary to popular belief the coloured rings for
Line Regiments were not facing coloured but white for the Gren Coy, Red
for the Centre Coy and Green for the LI Coy.  Typically, the only
extant Line Regt cap of this type I'm aware of is the 33rd Foot one at
Halifax which, being a Red Faced Regiment has generally been assumed to
be a contrast facing colour.  In my view it's a Gren Coy example, but
who can tell?



Now, there is one order recorded for 'Grey Caps with Black Rings'...
so, can anyone think of a Black faced Regiment which didn't have flank
Coys....?"


_________________

Rifleman LaLa
I'm part of the problem
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    2/95th Rifles Forum Forum Index -> General Forum All times are GMT
Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum
Link back to main web site