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The 'THATCHER' knapsack
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OJM
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

ben wrote:
Great to see some more Ljunggren images, thank you very much.
Frank Packer is working on the donation issues to Northern German states atm, so I expect some gems from him in due course.
The Heise document is very familiar to those of us with an interest in knapsack ephemera, I have fond memories of Paul and Frank debating its significance.


Could get you lots more if you want? Will send you a PM.

Should have guessed it was already known to you guys, apologies if I've tread into stuff still not public.

Quote:
As usual you raise some interesting points!
Just pondering about your wish to identify the regiments who would use the Garter badge on knapsacks - looking at the image of the "Thatcher" again it is not merely the Kings cypher but particularily it is also "reversed and interlaced".It still looks to be 1st Foot Guards to me - the present Grenadier Guards still sport the same badge. The Coldstream would have used the Garter Star and the 3rd Guards I think the star of the Order of the Thistle. See the famous Hamilton Smith print of these three. Regiments are very particlular about guarding their distinctions so I am not certain other corps would have disputed with 1st Guards to sport this variety of the badge.
As to whether other Royal regiments would have used the Royal cypher and Garter in the reversed and interlaced form I don't know - it would require the searching of many images to try and find one detailed enough to show that. Hopefully our Canadian friends in the Royal Scots may have comment to make.


Thank you, and very valid points in return!

If I've understood things correctly, he status of the "old corps", and possibly also the Footguards(?) in regards to badges are given by the clothing warrant/regulations, where older practices and customs are confirmed in writing for the first time, is the mirrored monogram for the 1st Footguards mentioned there?

In general many customs, traditions and pecularities may not have been "set in stone" until the later Victorian period, and then finely groomed and kept up until the current day, so some carefulness should be shown in backtracing them.

When that is said, the only interlaced monogram appearing on the pages here http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=British_Army , is for the colours of the 1st Footguards, so your point might very well stand.  
(All of this with caveats on the reliability of Kronoskaf)

As for the Royal Regiments, I would think that the 21st and 25th would have a variation on Order of the thistle, St. Andrew or similiar, while the 1st Foot to my surprise is given a Garter with a Royal Monogram.

At the same time, the Hanoverians, http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Hanoverian_Army , appear to put the garter every possible place, they  have the Order of the garter appearing on colours in all regiments, and also seem to have a propensity for putting them, four at a time, on saddle covers, on grenadier caps, as well as royal monograms on bandoliers, even for "ordinary" units without any special connection to the ruling house. This, along with the use of the garter on the insignia of the KGL makes me wonder if they had such a different view/practise on the use of the monogram and garter that they would also get off with a design primarily associated with the 1st Footguards in Britain?

Along with someone doing 1st Foot, it could be interesting to hear someone doing KGL or Hanoverian impressions's view on this.


As for Ljunggren and the trumpeter. I'd say it's more about slightly bad attempt at perspective, the guy is taking a step towards his colleagues or the counter.
The man to the left is wearing no nordic uniform known to me, based on the hunting horn, the hat and what appears to be fancy details, I'd say that he's either a coachman or a northern german mailman, the whole looks very similar to depictions of danish mailmen in the period.
It also fits quite well into the setting of an inn.

regards

Ola JM
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ola
If your mission is to positively identify the badge on the Thatcher to a particular regiment - as I said above -  I think you must specifically looking for a unit that uses not only the Garter and its lettering"Honi soit qui mal y pense" -  but uses it exclusively with the Royal cypher/ mongram reversed and interlaced. Several units used the Garter on their badges but placed within it their symbol or perhaps Regimental number.

Since we know only very few knapsacks survive it seems the next best thing is to look at extant period belt plates.
Chartrands "A Scarlet coat" shows several on pages 221 - 224 -  totalling 54 images of extant belt plates of these only the following are relevant :

1st Foot A Thistle within a belted circlet which could be the Garter but the lettering is worn away
4th Foot  Lion within Garter
29th Foot Lion within Garter

The GR Cypher appears on several but NOT within the Garter!

Haythornthwaites" British Napoleonic Infantry"  page 64 shows belt plates of the 1st Guards - yes -  Garter enclosing the GR cypher reversed and interlaced  -   and 3rd Guards  - Order of the Thistle.

The Hougoumont website page shows images of several excavated plates but none have the Garter.

I found an image - which I cannot put my hand to at the moment attributed to the 4th squadron Royal Horse Guards using the reversed and interlaced cypher but without the Garter. The Life Guards do use the Garter with a cypher in this form though slightly diiferant style to the Grenadiers - but we are not looking at Cavalry.

A  look at Victorian cap badges reveals many using the Garter enclosing various Antelopes, Lions and the simple version of the Royal cypher.

A google search "Royal cypher reversed and interlaced" brings up reference to the Grenadier Guards time and time again or other sources that imply that the Royal cypher in that form is the mongram for the personal use of the Soveregn - so its follows that the 1st Guards were conferred the use of the badge as a special priviledge as "Household" troops  - together with the Life Guards.

So ...... my money is still on the 1st Guards!!
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OJM
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having scoured through everything I could find in my shelf + online of preserved belt plates, buttons, colours etc., I'll have to agree with you, as long as we're talking about possible British regiments.

However, won't close the door fully on the Hanoverian option.

Anyway, the possibility of contact between British troops and Swedish as one explanation of how the knapsack ended in Sweden is a bit better documented, and the 1st Footguards were in the Low Countries in the timeframe.

To combine the Hanoverian angle with a green man, 1812 cap and knapsack:

ASKB:
Quote:
Soldaten von der Engl.Hannoverischen Legion gez. in Nürnberg den 31.Merz 1815
One of a collection of 72 ink and pencil drawings, partially hand colored, of uniform figures by Georg Schäfer after Johann Adam Klein, these being slightly enlarged copies of the originals in the Nürnberg Kupferstichkabinet des Germanischen Zentralmuseums and the art museum of Hamburg; uniforms of Bavaria, Frankfurt, Hannover, Mainz, Austria, Prussia, Saxony, Würzburg, Russia and France are shown; accompanied by a typewritten index of 8 pages. Unfinished watercolor showing one soldier with green jacket, and 3 soldiers with red jackets, civilians behind them near a covered wagon.

Haven't found the original Klein version of this, but compared Schäfers rendering with Kleins for some of the other pictures, and they seem fairly accurate.

The crossed straps occur in several depictions of British regiments as well, even alongside "ordinary" straps. Why would the soldier do this? Better carrying comfort?
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ola - a little more on the badge
Came across these images I had saved some time ago:


which is on this link:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/projecthougoumont/#!/media/set/?set=oa.296776047000377&type=1

also

which I think was found in a grave of a 1st Guards Serjeant - poss at Waterloo but I have lost the link
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Painting, possibly a study, signed George Jones 1815, on wall of Cavalry & Guards Club, London.

Courtesy of Rob Yuill:



Note mess tin not in cover (round or D-shape?). If round, note round tin associated with the Thatcher pack on first page of this thread:
http://2nd95thrifles.myfastforum.org/ftopic823-0-asc-0.php
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should the character in foreground be Royal Artillery (at the wheel of a cannon?), here are the colours on an earlier folding model, courtesy & ©NAM: (Acc No:1987-06-2-1):

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Obadiah
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The crest on the NAM knapsack is an oval long ways, where the one in the painting looks oval side ways.

It would be interesting to find out who and what he is? It looks like he's wearing a sword but what is in his right hand? Also the cording on his cap looks gold. His haversack is on his right hip where his canteen is on his left. Nice split cuffs though.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not seen that RA knapsack image before - nice one.

The Royal Artillery cap cords were yellow - perhaps its just the way it looks in the picture unless perhaps Serjeants wore gold ? - chevrons would not be seen from this angle though the sash tail should be apparent.
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddie wrote:
"The Royal Artillery cap cords were yellow ..."

This from Rob:
"From what I recall of looking at the picture as we moved into dinner, the figure sporting the pack does have yellow cords, however the effect of light and sh*t phone camera are not helping it appear so here. See the painting in the flesh, there is little doubt in my mind that it is a depiction of a soldier in The Royal Regiment of Foot Artillery."
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear all,

It was five years ago we started this thread. Yes, five long, lonely years have passed since the so-called 'Thatcher' was discovered.

It was thanks, in part, to curator Martin Markelius and his dedicated team at the Swedish Army Museum, Stockholm, who digitalised the museums vast collection and in doing so, brought the 'Thatcher' to light and showed it to our greedy little eyes.

And so it was this month, as part of a dedicated band of 95th researchers, I ventured forth to the Northern lands, stepped into the hallowed back rooms of the museum and not only feasted my greedy little eyes upon this sacred object but also got my greasy mitts on it!

Happy Bunny team!

There are one or two questions we pondered that have now been answered - and there are some that haven't!

But there is much to share and it will take time. So to begin with, here are the basic measurements which I'm happy to say were more or less spot on!



More to come...
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John Waller
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the main body a single piece of material?
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Der Warenfuhrer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WRT Regimental Practice; these are still not 'set in stone'. To illustrate, wearing of Stable belts is apparently forbidden by Army Dress Regs, yet many regiments do it anyhow. Likewise, when CS95 clothing was introduced (in 1995) the 3 Regular Para Bns all wore it in different ways; 1 Para Green shirt, woolley pulley, 2 Para, DPM shirt and woolley pulley and 3 Para (as intended) DPM shirt, sleeves rolled down.

Knapsacks were necessaries anyhow (as I understand it), so not procured centrally although the pattern was regulated. Consequently there'd be more scope for minor Regimental differences.  This is why so many knapsacks survive (though later ones generally) they belonged to the man and so weren't handed in on discharge.
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Waller wrote:
Is the main body a single piece of material?

John, from the photo of the pack open, top to bottom, it's a single piece.
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halondella
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject: Thatcher Pack Question Reply with quote

Paul and All,
I made three of these for Waterloo, came out okay. Now I need three more and want to avoid the mistakes. I have three questions: (1) What is the width of the chest strap? Is it the same as the shoulder straps? (2) The buckle on the chest strap appears to be round. Is it iron or brass? Impossible to find good round buckles over here (VA, USA). (3) What is the length of the long strap that is sewn to the back and appears to go around the pack? I assume it is one inch wide, any guess to the length of the missing part? Is it buff or brown? (4) Finally, any ideas of the sequence of construction for the leather reinforcements on the top of the bag corners? I went top to bottom: leather, main bag, cloth coverings, board pocket.
This took too much top stitching and does not look like the pictures

Thanks for any help. Love this Forum.

Regards,
Harry Pilotto
Pte & QM
3rd Coy, 42d RHR (USA)
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Harry,

Haven't forgotten you. Just in a bit of a dilemma as a couple of points I needed to investigate with the original, I didn't get round to due to lack of time - one of them was the length of the mess tin strap (long brown!). I'll come back to you on those details shortly....


Chest Strap:
The buckle is to fit 1⅛" (30mm): 1¼" at widest end. 2¼" turned back. 7½" long (not inc the folded back section)

Yes, the turn back on the strap at the buckle end is on the front as opposed to the reverse. A slip-up by the maker I suspect.

Round buckles like these are difficult to get here also. I doubt there is a hard and fast regulation on these buckles. I use an oval buckle, fwiw.


More to come...

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