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Canteen
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:51 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

You're doing great work there, Iain. I know we get lovely ones from Sean Philips, but we have no idea how they are put together. Do keep us posted on what you're doing and especially with pix.

Carry on...
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Colin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work as usual Iain.

For interest, below are some photographs of a canteen which the Niagara Historical Society has in their collection, which is dated c. 1812-1814.
Photo credit to the Niagara Historical Society, with the following link:
http://www.pro.rcip-chin.gc.ca/bd...20image%20=%20%27%27X%27%27%27%29



While no exact measurements are provided by the NHS, the thickness of the slats look fairly thin, much like Iain's reproductions.

In this particular example, there are also clear indications that the slat edges have most certainly been rounded out once together and the metal bands are left in a circular shape.

In terms of the white leather strap in the one photo, I believe this is a modern 'repro' strap added on by the NHS.

Cheers

Colin
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Hagman's roadie
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iain Dubh wrote:
Hagman's, Roy is into his 33 year on TV, and I have to assume he might have started a bit before then... so you might need a bit more than 10 years to catch up!

I do have a flat bladed shave, but I will try it on a finer setting. I also have to do a bit more sharpening and honing of the blade before I can expect really good results. Although all the oak is quarter-sawn, there is a bit of wave to the grain. I did not pay much attention to matching the grains on each piece while I assembled the bottles, so I will have to deal (I think) with the possibilty of having the blade catch and gouge in places... but your suggestion of fine cuts should minimize this.

Aye,
Iain


Im a late starter Iain so I need to pick up the pace a bit. In 30 years I'll be tree food most likely ;)
Don't want to stray too far off topic but yes, a super sharp cutting edge is essential. If you haven't already, check out 'scary sharp' abrasive strips and invest in a honing guide. 'Veritas' make a good one although a spoke shave iron might be too short.

Okay, back to canteens.
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Greg Renault
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colin wrote:
Quote:
While no exact measurements are provided by the NHS, the thickness of the slats look fairly thin, much like Iain's reproductions.


I found the dimensions of the NHS canteen elsewhere on their site.  It is 7” x  3 7/8”  (http://images.ourontario.ca/1812/71283/data).  Here are some some canteen dimensions I dug up a while ago, including some described in Turner, and some from the Crimean 1854 production run. None have exactly the same dimensions, though they tend to be within 1/4" of 7" x 4".

canteen           diameter     stave       strap   buckle

Turner 1812 a         7 ¼”     3 ¼”       68”       iron
Turner 1812 b KGL 7”     4”
1812 Niagara  GR 7”     3 7/8”
NMM GR                 7 ¼”     4”
Turner 1854 BO         7”     3 ¾”       64”   brass
NC 1854 BO         7 ¼”     3 ¾”

Here are some additional pics:


Canteen (AAA2271), National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, London (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=AAA2271).  A relic of  Sir John Franklin’s last expedition 1845-48, found in an Inuit cache at Cape Maria Louisa by the Schwatka Search Expedition 1878-79.



1812 canteen, no brand (http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/civilwarantiques/110802WebCat.html)



1812 canteen found Bath, ON (http://lennox-addington.on.ca/e-history/virtual_exhibits/2_borders_and_frontiers/canteen.html)



19760351-002 Canadian War Museum, Ottawa, Ontario
(http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/explore/collections/artifact-catalogue/artifact-catalogue).  
Despite the "BO" brand, the museum states this is an Army canteen from the 1795-1805 period.  Robert Henderson told me that the Army provenance for this canteen is clear.   His research into military store records shows that when necessary Ordnance supplies were utilized by Army quartermasters, and paid for later.   He speculates this may account for how some Army canteens have Ordnance brands.   (Conversation, 26 February 2011.)   In other words, this may have been a canteen made for the Royal Artillery, say, but requisitioned from Ordnance stores by the Army QM.
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lovely images. Some old favourites there and a couple of new pics, thank you. the Bath one is new to me.

Im still dubious about the BO marking. If the Ordnance was selling its stores to private individuals, which a canteen purchased by a regiment IS to all intents and purposes then it ceases to be BO or govt property and  the broad arrow ought to have been cancelled in the famous 'reverse arrow' fashion. The whole point of the marking is to identify govt property...
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For B.O. stamp discussions see;
http://2nd95thrifles.myfastforum.org/ftopic293-0.php
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Belgium (Brussels) Army Museum
(sorry, no details taken)



(Photo taken 2011)
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Pvt._McNamara
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything very interestings, gentlemen.
Seeing all the pics of originals and Turner´s decpictions  I wonder about the color used.
Sean Phillips mentions an oil based mixture of Prussian blue and white pigment, giving a light greyish blue on his products, while originals generelly appear to be of a much darker blue. I suppose that this blue could vary among the producers. Question is what modern color (oils ?) you all prefer?

cheers

Robert
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although a grey blue is the preferred colour, I note that the CHS prints show other colours and indeed other types and shapes of canteen ;)

Flicking through  the CHS prints in Wellington's Army (The Uniform of the British Soldier 1812-1815), Plates by Charles Hamilton Smith, text by the Immortal Haythornthwaite (PBUH), I see that of 5 prints illustrating water canteens of the rank and file:
2 are B.O. blue barrels of the familiar type.     1813,1815 (pl.s 30, 47)
1 is a  black barrel of the familiar type.           1812,        (pl.2
1 is a large black pear shaped flask, possibly covered in leather
                                                                1812         (pl.27)
1 is a small black pear shaped flask                1813         (pl.35)

I think I may have located one of the last two types in a reserve collection. Details to follow.
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Rifleman LaLa
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:38 pm    Post subject: Regarding leather water bottles. Reply with quote

In Charles Hamilton Smith's prints, several plates show black canteens of round or pear shapes, presumably of leather or cloth covering glass or tin.
These include:

Plate 27 1st Foot Guards in marching order.
Plate 35 87th Prince of Wales Own.

Below are images of a leather water 'costrel' type bottle alleged to date from the Bristol Volunteers period (1797-1802 and 1804-14)



This object is in Bristol City Museum, amongst a large collection of volunteers artefacts and uniforms.
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Rifleman LaLa
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notes from BGO clothing report  concerning trail of leather canteen. I think this is from WO 3/56. I took it in 08 I thimk and have lost the label.

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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WO58/50, 125

Letter book of Commissary in chief. His Office, 19th February 1811, to The Commander in Chief.

Sir,

Having received the commands of the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury to provide a considerable number of canteen straps to complete the depots of camp equipage under the charge of the Store Keeper General, and being informed by him that brown leather is by far preferable to black, which is at present in use for this article, I take leave to send herewith a pattern strap of each description, and have to request, that I may be honoured with Your Excellencys instructions which pattern you would wish to have adopted for the supply which I am about to supply.
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282178248874

Discuss!


Ebay sale: Sold for £490 Sept 2016
Description: 'This is an original and very rare George III (1760-1820) military water bottle. The bottle is constructed primarily of wood, with two steel straps around the edge and steel belt loops on either side. One side of the bottle has a George III cypher finely painted and the other side has the letter 'A' in gilt scroll.

Water bottle measures 7 inches in diameter x 3 inches deep.'
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StoneDog
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben Townsend wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282178248874

Discuss!

Not sure, Private Purchase  ? Fantasy??


Is this a good 'un ? (as in correct not as in functioning)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NAPOLEO...item1c705457bc:g:4C0AAOSwGtRXyqfK
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This canteen is from the 28th RoF re-enactor's group in Gloucester. I think they purchased from Sean Phillips (Sean offers the BO mark and broad arrow as an option). The group is largely defunct- apologies if that's not the case- but was a class outfit, though small.


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