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Caps Regimental Cap Shako Stovepipe
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Steve Day
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Caps Regimental Cap Shako Stovepipe  Reply with quote

Hi, Iím looking for some info about shakos or caps, as weíre looking at the possibility of make these in-house or finding a new supplier. †I know you guys have done a lot of research and I could really do with your help if Iím going to make changes in our group.

Iím interested in the bugle horn and peaks. †I know you have gone for brass bugle horns, which are very slim-line compared to other versions Iíve seen, and you changed over to square peaks some time ago. †Could you please advise me against the info you have on these items.

Cheers,
Steve 3/95th
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steve,

An 1801 clothing warrant for the Rifle Corps details a brass cap plate,

"...each Sergeant, Corporal, Drummer (bugler), and Private Man shall have..
A Cap, cockade and tuft as above specified (viz., A Cap made of Felt and Leather with Brass plates Cockade and Tuft conformable to a pattern approved by Us, the felt crown of the cap and Tuft to be supplied annually, the leather part and Brass plate and the leather cockade every two years.)"




Clothing Warrant 1801 from Book of Entries, Military and Martial Affairs, 1801 i.e.3.59. Record Office. Dublin. Reproduced in History of The Rifle Brigade, Verner, vol1 p.42

The brass badge we use corresponds to Georgian light infantry archaeological finds from Spain, Portugal, North America and England.

The square peak was introduced in 1809:

17th April 1809, Clothing regs for Riflemen
"...alteration in the Peaks of the caps of the Rifle Corps has been approved, and that they are in future to be square instead of round, as has hitherto been the case."
(WO3/47, 474-5; 17 April. 1809, Adj General to?)

Hope this is food for thought.
Cheers, Ben
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Obadiah
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ain't we been down this road before Steve?

Adding to what Ben has put,  have a look at this from our research section. http://95th-rifles.co.uk/equipment/regimental-cap/

Dave
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Mercian Pete
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That just shows you what you can miss if you don't explore a website thoroughly!  I didn't really appreciate how much info was on the Research section of the website. It's brilliant!
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Steve Day
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Food for thought indeed, many thanks.

The problem I have is that I need to convince a number of people within our group before I can introduce any changes, and Iím not just talking about our Quarter Master team.  To do this I need overwhelming evidence I can present them.

I recently purchased a booklet on ĎThe British Infantry Shako 1800-1897í as published by the Military Historical Society dated 2008.  This booklet also refers to the Order of 1801 and describes the Caps to be supplied, and goes further to detail the size of the brass plates as 6 ľ inches high and 4 inches wide.  This can only refer to the brass cap plates worn by the line infantry, with the exception of the Highland Corp.

Under the same heading (so Iím assuming here that this statement is included in the same Order), the booklet states ďthe Rifle Corps not to wear the brass fronting to their caps, but instead to have a Bugle and Crown, with green cord around the cap.  Unfortunately, itís not clear whether these bugle badges were brass or not.

The booklet also refers to ĎThe Clothing Regs 24th Feb 1802í which goes further to clarify the 1801 order and details the periods for replacing the felt caps and parts of the cap as you described.  As part of these Regs it repeats the Order relating to the Rifle Corp not to wear the brass plate but have a bugle & crown.

Unfortunately for us, there is no surviving rank & file Caps for the Rifles, so we only have the written word that rarely gives us the detailed info weíre looking for.  Even the various prints and paintings out there cannot be relied upon as many were drawn many years after the wars.  Many of the bugle & crown / ribbon shown in these prints and paintings do not appear to be brass in colour or too difficult to tell what they are made of.  Iím assuming the cap badges we have used in the past are based on the description of a bugle & crown as moulded onto the buttons we use for our tunics.

Do you have any more details about the brass bugle badges found in Spain, Portugal, North America and England, i.e. where are they displayed / held, and how can we be sure these are English and were issued to the 95th?

The reference to WO3/47, 474-5; 17 April. 1809, Adj General to? Regarding the square peaks is interesting.  Is it possible to go somewhere to see the whole document?  I can see from the link provided by Dave, we have what looks like 2 officers and possibly a musician of the Rifles with square peaks.  Are there any other illustrations or documents out there that show the rank & file had these peaks?  Iím sure that quite often musician had more elaborate uniforms than your rank & file.
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Neibelungen
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a side note, the cap introduced in late 1815 was†the so called†'Regency Shako' rather than the 'Bell-top †Shako'.

The later was introduced 1829-1844, while the former was 1816 to 1829, with a variation†of the†officers style around 1822.

The primary difference being†about 9 1/2" - 10 1\2" wide compared to 11" of the Bell-top and 7-8" tall compared to 6 1/2" of the bell-top. The officer's change†in 1822 was a variation in height and plume as well as shako plate.
(Hence the reference to chinscales which never appear before then).
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iain
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steve
Original document for WO3/47 is attached
 
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Day wrote:

The reference to WO3/47, 474-5; 17 April. 1809, Adj General to? Regarding the square peaks is interesting. †Is it possible to go somewhere to see the whole document? †I can see from the link provided by Dave, we have what looks like 2 officers and possibly a musician of the Rifles with square peaks. †Are there any other illustrations or documents out there that show the rank & file had these peaks? †Iím sure that quite often musician had more elaborate uniforms than your rank & file.


Here's some more square peaks (note no powder magazine/horn on the first) and a couple of Rifle Volunteers units that mimicked the 95th;

 

 
Volunteer corps
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havercakelad
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are striving for accuracy then, IMO,  caps using blocked construction are a must. Craig armstrong has supplied caps to several units.
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havercakelad
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Armstrong makes decent caps for several units. They are blocked too which makes them more authentic.
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve,
I believe you are confusing two documents. The one in the Bryan book is NOT the clothing warrant of 1801 I referenced above. This is a seperate warrant for solely the 95th, issued in Dublin. As you can see, it lists brass cap furniture.

The dug examples come from Spain, France, UK and North America, all from sites of the era. Ours is based on one in the possession of James Kochan. All are identical. We can confidently say that they are Georgian cap plates. Are they 95th plates? We can't say, as they aren't found with numbers. The order to add numbers to LI cap plates comes in 1814. My contacts in the Pyrenees say they havent dug any numbers, despite finding multiple plates.
The chubby silver buglehorn so beloved of re-enactors is usually a copy of a post period horn. Often from a victorian glengarry. †Gavin once detailed to Blakey and me the specific items he used to create the composite badge he produced for the 3/95th. I dont know if these are the ones you still use.


Last edited by Ben Townsend on Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Steve Day
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone, you've given me a lot to think about.

Steve
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Obadiah
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there much to think about? You either stay with a cobbled together Victorian cap badge or go with one that is at least a period Georgian military cap badge.

The only thing I'm still not sure of is whether the 95th wore a crown on their caps? Other than the one reference period images don't seem to show it. If there was one would it be combined with the bugle horn or separate?

Are going down the 1812 pattern cap {Belgic} road or staying with the 1806 pattern cap?
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Ben Townsend
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the absence of any evidence Im still inclined to think that in the context, 'buglehorn and crown' the crown refers to the ribbons etc from which the buglehorn is suspended.
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Eddie
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ben wrote:
In the absence of any evidence Im still inclined to think that in the context, 'buglehorn and crown' the crown refers to the ribbons etc from which the buglehorn is suspended.


I can't run with that Ben me ole mate - a crown is a crown not tied ribbons or strings - its a Royal symbol and not to be messed with!
You are very familiar with this image I know dated 1800 ?




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