Archive for 2/95th Rifles Forum Forum site for 2nd Battalion 95th Rifles Re-enactment Society
 


       2/95th Rifles Forum Forum Index -> General Forum
Ben Townsend

The Red Coat / Other Ranks (existing examples)

I am helping a friend who is compiling a reference list of all known red coats to common soldiers. This is focussed on regulars and embodied militia, no other auxiliaries are included, but foreign units in British regular service are (KGL etc).

Here is the first rough list:
1) Coat, 1st Foot Guards, Russia.
2) Coat,  Drummer, Coldstream Guards, Russia.
3) Coat 9th Regiment of Foot, Musee Royal de l’Armee et Histoire Militaire,             Bruxelles.
4) Coat, 26th Regiment of Foot, Musee Royal de l’Armee et Histoire Militaire,  Bruxelles.
5) Coat 26th Regiment of Foot, Musee de l’Emperi, Salon de Provance.
6) Coat, 42nd Regiment of Foot, Boradino?
7) Coat 43rd Regiment of Foot, Russia?
8 ) Coat, 69th Regiment of Foot, Cardiff
9) Coat, 83rd Regiment of Foot,  Musee de l’Emperi, Salon de Provance.
10) Coat, 83rd Regiment of Foot,  Musee de l’Armee, Paris.
11) Coat, 87th Regiment of Foot, Royal Irish Fusileers Museum, Armaagh.
12) Coat 104th New Brunswick Regiment, War of 1812. Cape Ann Museum, U.S.A.
13) Coat, Light coy, Militia Regiment,  Musee Royal de l’Armee et Histoire Militaire, Bruxelles.
14) Coat, Drummer, Northumberland Militia, Alnwick Castle.
15) Coat, Drummer, Royal Carmarthen Militia, Cardiff  Castle.  
16) Coat, Royal Lancashire Militia (author’s speculation)  Delft
17) Coats, King’s German Legion (4 various) Celle


Any more suggestions?
Eddie

A worthy project - it would be wonderful to have detailed digital photos of them all !  
The list seems much as expected  - drawing on G A Stepplers study ' Redcoat : the Regimental coat of the British Infantryman 1808 -  15 ' - with the additional info from Cardiff Castle museum so wonderfully photographed by Rob Yuill - available on the 68th FB page.

'Gregger' shows photos of  Sergeant Major's coat in Inverness 72/ 73rd Foot ??   - this on the recent NCO distinctions topic. I presume by Inverness this is Fort George?

PLEASE  PLEASE  - DOES ANY ONE KNOW THE WHERABOUTS OF THE RUSSIAN HELD COATS?? ANY PHOTOS ?? It would be wonderful to see images of the Coldstream drummers coat.
Ben Townsend

The intention is to examine all of the coats. It will be good for a Brit to do a detailed study, since all the best work so far has been done by Steppler, Chartrand etc.
Fort George SM noted. Any more?
Ben Townsend

Borodino:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BlackWatch_Jacket_(Borodino_Battlefield_Museum).jpg
OJM

The coats in Celle are:
17 A) Grenadier Sjt, 4th KGL Line Battalion. Grenades on turnbacks, chevrons on one sleeve.
17 B) Light Coy Colour Sjt, 7th KGL Line Battalion. Bugle diamonds on top of wings.
17 C) Battalion Coy Sjt, 4th KGL Line Battalion.
17 D) dolman, Sjt. Major, 3rd KGL Hussars (strictly speaking not relevant for this list)

There is also
1Smilie_PDT Corporals coat, 1st KGL Heavy Dragoons, Historiches Museum Hannover

(a slightly odd coat supposedly for a KGL surgeon at the Hamburg History Museum falls outside of this, mention it just in case it's not known here)

When I visited, I was certain that the one in Fort George Ardersier was identified as for 78th Foot, ie. "Ross-shire Buffs"?
OJM

At the Deutsche Historische Museum in Berlin of possible interest:
19) Private, Flank Company, possibly Militia, pre 1800.
20) Private, 1st Royal Dragoons, given as 1787/1796, with shoulder epaulette

The remnant photos of the pre-1945 Collection also shows one full length late 18th C grenadier coat, possibly Coldstream Guards and now in Russia?
Richard Warren

How far back are you going Ben? A OR coat of the 1st Foot Guards dated to 1773 is in the National Trust collections, part of the Snowshill Wade stuff - image here - http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/1350640

Says in the blurb there's an identical coat in the NAM, which may be that drawn by Lawson on p 51 of Vol 3 of his 'History of the Uniforms of the British Army'. I notice there's nothing from NAM in your list?

Can I ask - any more details of your no 16? Where in Delft? Which author? Lancs Militia being of interest to me ...
Ben Townsend

Thanks for the additions chaps, Ola, Richard, and Hew (pm). Keep them coming please. The focus for the study is French revolutionary and napoleonic wars, regular and embodied militia infantry regiments, up to sergeant in rank, but other stuff is also interesting to me. Love the Snowhill coat.
I will keep you updated on Delft, Richard. The NAM doesn't have anything that fits the criteria afaik. It's rich in officers' coats, poor for common soldiers' stuff.
John Waller

Is a blue coat allowed? Warrington Bluebacks coatee Lancashire Infantry Museum

http://www.lancashireinfantrymuse.../Warrington-Volunteers-Coate1.jpg
OJM

21) Late 1790s ORs coat, royal blue facings, majority of buttons marked "Gloucester Local Militia", also minority of buttons marked "crowned 5 LNC" and "Royal Stockport" over the Prince of Wales arms and "LM".
May have been tampered with after service use.

(Also one blue coat with red collar, yellow lace, Britannia buttons, volunteers?)
Both Coats in Bergen Historical Museum.
Images from the Yearbook of the Norwegian Arms and Armour Society.

Gregger

This coat is in the collection of the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa. It is thought to be a Quebec Militia unit, grenadier company.
Gregger

Here are images of a coat that I believe is in a private collection, if anyone knows anymore about it - please share.

Gregger

This is a Royal Nova Scotia militia coat at the Citadel in Halifax, Nova Scotia. The cut indicates it is an early version (ca. 1800).
Richard Warren

"  21) Late 1790s ORs coat, royal blue facings, majority of buttons marked "Gloucester Local Militia", also minority of buttons marked "crowned 5 LNC" and "Royal Stockport" over the Prince of Wales arms and "LM".
May have been tampered with after service use.
(Also one blue coat with red collar, yellow lace, Britannia buttons, volunteers?) "

-------------------

Interesting! Can I ask where these two are? No Local Militia till 1808, so must have been tampered with if late 1790's. Both Gloucestershire and Cheshire (Stockport) Local Militia used the blue facings of their county militia regiments, so hard to guess where this started life. Any lace on it? "5 LNC" has me stumped at the moment ...
DrsRob

Richard Warren wrote:
Can I ask - any more details of your no 16? Where in Delft? Which author? Lancs Militia being of interest to me ...

My first post on this forum...

The coat in Delft would probably be that in the Dutch Army Museum. This has merged with the Air Force Museum and is currently located in Soesterberg. Here is a link to a coat they have in their collection:

https://www.nmm.nl/zoeken-in-de-collectie/detail/256522/
Ben Townsend

Now we are getting somewhere. The British National Army Museum is light on OR coats except for Local Militia (the later version of militia for this period).
There is this,
Coatee, short-tailed, other ranks', Jamaica Militia, 1816 (c). Uniforms 1959-12-11

And these,

Coatee, full dress, Devonshire (East) Militia, 1799 (c). Uniforms 1958-12-22
Coatee, full dress, 1st or East Devon Militia, 1816. Uniforms 1958-12-24
Coatee, full dress, 1st or East Devon Militia, 1816. Uniforms 1958-12-25
Short tailed coatee, 1814 (c); associated with 56th (West Essex) Regiment of Foot. Uniforms 1962-09-8
Scarlet coatee, Unidentified, 1815 (c). Uniforms 1960-12-12
OJM

Richard Warren wrote:
Interesting! Can I ask where these two are? No Local Militia till 1808, so must have been tampered with if late 1790's. Both Gloucestershire and Cheshire (Stockport) Local Militia used the blue facings of their county militia regiments, so hard to guess where this started life. Any lace on it? "5 LNC" has me stumped at the moment ...


In Bergen City Historical Museum in Norway, by way of the costume department of the local theatre. Obviously ;)

The merchant patricians of Bergen had very close connections with the UK both before, during and after the Napoleonic wars, so not as strange as it first might appear. Will update original post with crude photos when I get home.
Richard Warren

OJM - thanks for the Bergen reference. I look forward to the crude photos!

DrsRob - thanks for the Delft coat image. If this is the coat listed by Ben (and how many such coats can there be in Delft?), then Lancs Militia is a possibility, it seems to me, but maybe a slim one. The Museum site gives this as 1st Foot Guards queried, I suppose on the grounds of the plain white lace and single spacing. But - unless I'm missing something - the lace shape for the 1st Guards was bastion through this period, not straight pointed. So I'm assuming that this id is wrong.

As for Lancs Militia, the five regiments had either white lace with a blue line single spaced, or plain white lace singly in bastion/ jew's harp / flowerpot shape, or white lace in threes in pointed / Coldstream / nun's head shape. This is white, pointed, single. So, not a fit, quite. The only possibility I can see is a sergeant's jacket of the 2nd Royal Lancashire Militia, whose blue & white lace was pointed and single spaced like this. But does the photo show the narrower 3/8 inch lace and finer scarlet cloth we'd expect for a sergeant? I'm not sure. And would we expect chevrons, guessing the period from the cut??

I wonder what the buttons are?? Said on the Museum site to be "from another regiment". They might shed some light ...

I wonder if any volunteers from the 2nd Lancs Militia transferred into regular service for the Holland expedition of 1809?
DrsRob

Richard Warren wrote:
DrsRob - thanks for the Delft coat image. If this is the coat listed by Ben (and how many such coats can there be in Delft?), then Lancs Militia is a possibility, it seems to me, but maybe a slim one. The Museum site gives this as 1st Foot Guards queried, I suppose on the grounds of the plain white lace and single spacing. But - unless I'm missing something - the lace shape for the 1st Guards was bastion through this period, not straight pointed. So I'm assuming that this id is wrong.

As far as I know they have only this one coat. I agree that their identification is probably wrong. They have doubts themselves. Besides, after the merger a new site was build as well and the description were made anew and not by specialists.
John Waller

The Wardrobe museum has a black and white photo of what is believed to be a drummer's coat of the 49th regt circa 1800 which was at one time ar RUSI. Presumably it went to the NAM?
OJM

Richard Warren wrote:
OJM - thanks for the Bergen reference. I look forward to the crude photos!


You're welcome, see update in my original post.
Richard Warren

OJM - many thanks!
Eddie

John Waller wrote:
The Wardrobe museum has a black and white photo of what is believed to be a drummer's coat of the 49th regt circa 1800 which was at one time ar RUSI. Presumably it went to the NAM?


Can't find the picture on the Wardrobe search.  


NAM inventory search:

Coatee, drummers', 49th (Princess Charlotte of Wales's) (or Hertfordshire) Regiment of Foot, possibly 1840 (c). Uniforms 1959-12-6
Ben Townsend

Richard Warren and I have conducted a brief investigation of the coat at Delft, by photograph, and  reassigned it from Lancs Militia to East Middlesex militia, based on the button and lace, which are correct for the latter and not the former. Its probability of being a Guards' coat seems limited.
Eddie

Coats in the Musee de L'Armee Bruxelles






Eddie

Slight departure from the topic but came across this which may of interest

though an Officer's coat. Interesting write up :

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/fo.../britishinfantry/27thfoot1813.htm
Ben Townsend

This kit ended up in the Inniskillings museum. I believe Rob Yuill has pics.

       2/95th Rifles Forum Forum Index -> General Forum
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum
Link back to main web site