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Steve 60th

5/60th Fatigue Jacket Facings

Hi Chaps,

As a unit we are after some learned advice on what facing colour we should put on our Fatigue/undress jackets. The choices we have thus far are:

1) Red (As per the Battalion Green Jacket)
2) Blue (Regimental Facing Colour)
3) Green
4) White/no facing colour.

We have already ascertained the sleeves are Serge and body is Kersey - with ten buttons down the front in one row?

Any help you may be able to give is much appreciated.

Thank you.
The Sarge!

I would go with your facing colour as this tends to be the norm for undress.
Steve 60th

So Red then?

That's what I am leaning more towards Smilie_PDT
John Waller

Properly called 'sleeved waistcoats' in the regs. I would think red facings but there are bound to be exceptions.
Eddie

It is worth mentioning here that the 2/95th adopted green facings in undress as this was specified in the Regulations for the Rifle corps1800 Article X  :

"the soldiers dress will consist in white flannel jacket, green cape and cuff"

Cape we take to mean collar

Undress is in most cases a best guess - in the face of a lack of evidence, going with the 5/60ths facing colour, red, seems the safe option.
Ben Townsend

I see three options.
A regimental pattern would suggest blue, and this would be a 'proud' option for a 'Royal regiment' to display their distinction.

Red would be appropriate for a battalion issue, that being correct according to the 1802 regs.

Thirdly, as a rifle corps, there is the possibility that the rifle distinctive of green was used.

Is there any evidence? The only reference in 60th inspection reports that I am aware of talks of, I think, the 4th battalion waiting for 'the regiment' to send out forage waistcoats, which would support option one. having said that, the rifle armed corps are so distinctive in their dress that I could absolutely see them adopting a battalion pattern. Hard call.
Steve 60th

Thanks John, Eddie & Ben for your replies.

It is indeed a very hard decision to make for us, and one I am sure we shall never rest easy with. That exact thought of 'pride' in displaying the blue facings - reflecting a Royal Regiment- went through my mind, although a more leveled view is to use the red facing.

Genuinely unsure which is best :s
Ben Townsend

What are you doing for undress headwear? As I'm sure you know, we had a choice to make between black (greenbook) and green (later sidelights). It prompted a lot of agonising, and sleepless nights. Well not quite! But theres the fun- balancing the sources and evidence Smilie_PDT
Steve 60th

I asked Dave G to send through the pattern for the same style undress cap you chaps use but haven't got it yet - although I know he has now retired.

Colours on that I haven't much idea. - what do you think?
Richard Warren

The more I look into undress clothing, the more confused I get ...

Just came across an 1815 return of Necessaries for a Militia regiment that included two rifle companies, specifying "Foraging Caps (Rifles)" - i.e. the rifle companies wore forage caps different to the rest. If that distinction could be allowed between companies within a regiment, I don't see why it shouldn't have been OK between battalions within a regiment. And by extension, a similar distinction in the undress jacket.

All down to the Colonel, though ....

[Oh yes, and the same return distinguishes between "Gloves" at 1/7d and "Gloves (Rifles)" at 1/8d. Black gloves for Riflemen, white for the rest??]
Ben Townsend

I'm with you there on the confusion Richard. In fact Mercer makes it clear that the RA acquired forage caps at company level, with design decisions being made at that level too. The practice may differ from regiment to regiment.

As ever with re-enactment, a good rile of thumb is to aim for uniformity and the unexceptional. The difficulty here is working out what that even was.
Ben Townsend

Regarding headgear, I think the wedge cap (as used by us), is the most useful option, as it is used throughout the period. The bonnet de police style tends to be more seen earlier, and the hummelesque shape only seems to appear for non-jocks very late in period (post 1812?). For one cap to do the whole job, the wedge is best bet. As for the colours, that will depend on what you go for with the jackets I guess ;)
John Waller

Richard Warren wrote:
All down to the Colonel, though ....

[Oh yes, and the same return distinguishes between "Gloves" at 1/7d and "Gloves (Rifles)" at 1/8d. Black gloves for Riflemen, white for the rest??]


Some dapper light coy officers sported green gloves.

I'm with you on your confusion Richard. The more I learn, the less I 'know'.
OJM

Richard Warren wrote:
Just came across an 1815 return of Necessaries for a Militia regiment that included two rifle companies, specifying "Foraging Caps (Rifles)" - i.e. the rifle companies wore forage caps different to the rest. All down to the Colonel, though ....


When does Forage Caps, as a rule, become produced new, out of new cloth? A distinct rifle type makes sense if they are still being produced either of old coats, or mimicking that, from green cloth...?
Ben Townsend

By 1813, there are the first attempts to regulate the foraging cap as uniform. Prior to that, they are the responsibility of the regiment, battalion, or company commander (as discussed above). As a necessary they would be charged to the men, so making use of old stuff would either save the officer a few bob, or the men the same. So recycling old coat tails, or whatever, to make forage caps, may be an economical practicality rather than anything else. As such no reason it shouldn't continue ad infinitum.
Richard Warren

I suppose it might depend on how much else the regimental tailors had to do, e.g. adding wings, flank company skirt ornaments and NCO chevrons onto basic jackets, repairs, re-sizing etc etc. If the tailors couldn't make up forage caps in house, the regiment could buy them in; Prater's "Military Warehouse" at Charing Cross sold "foraging caps" among much else, and I dare say other clothiers did too. Since the men had to pay for them (as "necessaries") it wouldn't make any odds to the officers, I guess.

As for officers' gloves - Shropshire Militia Standing Orders 1813:

"The officers of the rifle companies are to wear dark coloured gloves and pouch belts when upon duty, or when other officers wear gorgets."

"Dark" suggests black rather than green for rifles officers, maybe?
Steve 60th

Ben,

I don't suppose you or anyone else has a pattern for the style of forage cap you chaps use please have you? Dave G did promise me one but I know he has retired now.

I'm really leaning toward the red facing colour for the jackets.
Ben Townsend

Prater's is mentioned a lot in the lists of pattern items of around 1812-13 found in the WO papers. Any more on them, Richard?

I believe Ben Crowe has the patterns belonging to Dave G. I'll drop him a line and introduce you. I assume I'm talking to Steve Davies? Sorry, but you're under an avatar name. This is Ben Townsend btw, rather than one of the other myriad Bens.
Steve 60th

Ben,

Yes - Steve Davies, at your service! Smilie_PDT

Thanks - shall keep an eye out for a message from Mr. Crowe.

Thank you
Eddie

And the colour of the cap?  

Green with red edging??  Though I think the 68th have that.
From experience red edging tape is however notoriously difficult to get in a good red - always seems to pink.
Steve 60th

Eddie wrote:
And the colour of the cap?  

Green with red edging??  Though I think the 68th have that.
From experience red edging tape is however notoriously difficult to get in a good red - always seems to pink.


I think you are right Eddie Smilie_PDT Sounds the best solution to me. Smilie_PDT

Also if there is a pattern for the Undress Jacket/Waistcoat then that would be great as I would love to have a go at making that myself.
Richard Warren

I can provide a very simple waistcoat pattern - a drawing from the Pearse books - I'll post it later this evening. Not a full blown undress jacket, though.

Ben - a few passing refs to Prater's, but not many, since the Shropshire Militia only bought shoes from them. I'll dig them out and email you.
Richard Warren

Right. From the 1803 regulations (taken from 'The Regimental Companion') -

Infantry serving in Europe - Serjeants: “a cloth waistcoat, lined, with sleeves of milled serge”. Corporals, drummers & privates: “a kersey waistcoat, with serge sleeves” (“serge” here seems to mean milled serge, as for serjeants’ sleeves).

Here, from a page in one of the Pearse books, is a very simple drawing of the front of such a waistcoat:



(This is from a page for the North York Militia, around 1797, but I imagine the style was generic.) Sleeves would be plain, without cuffs, so not drawn here. I'm assuming the back was in one piece? So, three pieces for the body, plus sleeves.

BUT - in the Shropshire Militia, the regiment I've been studying recently, it's clear that at times the clothier supplied "as usual" non-regulation waistcoats, with collars and cuffs, and with sleeves apparently of the same material as the body. I'm assuming that these were usable as fatigue jackets. (No mention in this case as to whether cuffs and collar were coloured.)

But the same clothier also supplied the Shropshire with some waistcoats “in strict conformity to the King’s regulation”, meaning with serge sleeves and without collars or cuffs. These were worn by the regiment’s rifle companies – I'm simply not sure what the rifles here used for fatigue jackets.

As it happens, this distinction seems to be reflected in the 1803 regs for infantry serving in the West Indies:

Infantry serving in the West Indies (except the 5th Battalion of our 60th regiment …), serjeants: “a serge waistcoat, with sleeves”. Corporals, drummers & privates: “a serge waistcoat, with sleeves, with cuff and collar the colour of the facing of the regiment”. In the 5th battalion of the 60th regiment, and the 95th regiment of foot (or rifles corps), serjeants: “a waistcoat with serge sleeves”. Corporals, drummers & privates: “a kersey waistcoat, with serge sleeves”. No coloured collars and cuffs here for riflemen. Er, why not? No idea.

Anyway, let's backtrack and assume that the 5th/60th and 95th did indeed habitually wear white jackets ... I'd imagine that you take the basic pattern as in the drawing above and just add collar and cuffs. (Also shoulder straps?? Hmm ...)

And just to confuse things even more, you do also come across references to clothiers supplying some regiments with white "coats" or "jackets" and in some cases it's clear that these had skirts with turnbacks. So they weren't modified waistcoats ...

Anyway, maybe the drawing helps. Unless someone has a better period pattern?

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