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KGL

1808 60rnd Cartridge box question

hello there 2/95th and Friends

I've been reading through your forum for a few days, lot's of interesting stuff and seems to be the place to be to find folks who know their onions.

So I thought I'd join and ask some questions.

 I'm looking for a nice 1804 60 round Cartridge box - I'm aware of the one sold by discriminating general.  What's your opinion of it ?

And are there any other suppliers of said box that may be worth a purchase ?
Obadiah

Hi KGL and welcome to our forum. Paul D is your man on accoutrements, so I don't doubt he will advise you. From what I remember of the DG cartridge box is that it looks rough, but hey what do I know I just make the uniforms. LOL.

All Best

Dave
Paul Durrant

Hi KGL,
I'd call it the 1808 pattern.

Other than the DG and myself, I don't know who makes them. When I say I make them, I mean I have made a couple in the past as the stuff I make at the moment is mainly for my own unit, the 2/95th (not the 1808 pouch).

I've examined one original in detail (Leeds), had a colleague do the same with the one in Toronto, and have had other colleagues photograph others in Belgium and Portugal.

How accurate are the DG's? For the money, passable I feel. The general gist is there but with finer points missing. They cost approx £75 (say £100 once you get them into UK, if that's where you are). I'd charge more than that at £165 but mine, I'd like to think, are far closer to an original than theirs (which are probably run off on the cheap in India or Pakistan).

As always, it's a question of how much one is willing to pay for authenticity?

See images on this forum or facebook;
http://2nd95thrifles.myfastforum.org/ftopic981-0-asc-0.php
https://www.facebook.com/photo.ph...1565367620&type=3&theater

Hope this helps...
Colin

Hi KGL,

Paul is correct.
There seems to be very few suppliers who make the proper 1808 60-round boxes.

I have one of the DG 60 round cartridge boxes and while it is a faithful reproduction, there are a few technical issues with the boxes construction.

According to DG, the original which their box is based off of is a cartridge box found at Fort York in Toronto.
In terms of the quality, the leather is rough side out and the tins are all correct in sizing.

One issue I have found with the DG boxes is that the main flap is very, very stiff and one must make a mindful effort to try and form the flap to the shape of the box, or else the flap with stick out if not secured.

As well, the leather knot on the bottom, that is meant to secure the box flap, is made using a cut out leather button, rather than an actual knot.
This makes the box rather difficult to properly latch, especially in battle.

While it is not accurate, most people I know who have bought DG boxes have cut off the leather knot and replaced it with a more modern, metal lug.
It's not accurate but it makes it a lot easier to latch and you won't have valuable rounds spill all over the field.

Aside from DG, alternatively, another company here in Canada.. Coghlin and Upton Military Accoutrements sells a version of the 1808 60-round box.

I have one of theirs as well.
It is almost identical to the DG boxes in terms of size and construction, but the leather is more pliable.
However the flip side to this is that the leather does look to be a more modern, as opposed to the more historical dyed veggie tan.

Here is the link for their box. It is the exact same price as the DG boxes.

http://www.coghlinandupton.com/in...mp;cPath=2_16&products_id=320

Hopes this helps a bit

Colin
Obadiah

Thanks for that Colin. Personally I think the Coghlin and Upton one looks a lot better than the DG one. But hey what do I know I only make the uniforms. LOL.

All Best

Dave
Paul Durrant

Agree with Dave. But why they stick a poxy piece of thin leather instead of buff for the main flap fastening tab, I don't know. In contrast, the trapezoid pouch sewn to the front of the boxed body of the pouch should be of a much thinner leather.

Another feature omitted by both sellers' makers is that the two inner flaps they put in did not lie loose on top of the cartridges but were thicker leather partially sewn to the main flap so that they lifted up with the flap and provided a closed seal on the side when flap closed.



And the buff fastening tab


The original


But hey ho...
KGL

Thanks Lads, Good stuff, I had come across the Coughlin and upton one, but didn't mark it at the time and couldn't remember what they were called.

I'm thinking Maybe buy the coughlin and replace the wings / tab. (file the buckles a bit.

Or break the bank ?

Or put it on hold for now. (strokey chin smiley)
Paul Durrant

Aye, if you go for the Coughlin and you're up for it, do something with the buckles. I file modern ones into shape. Here's the originals;

And from another pouch;
Iain Dubh

KGL,
A somewhat discouraging problem we have had with the DG boxes is the quality of construction... we have had to completely rebuild three of them in the last year because the stitching has come undone, and/or the leather strap keepers have ripped. We have also replaced all the metal boxes due to the supplied tins rusting very quickly... I do not think the metal is actually tinned.
Aye,
Iain
Paul Durrant

I guess as they are machine stitched, the method is probably similar to fabric stitching - inasmuch as if the 'backing' thread goes, then the whole lot unravels.

No idea about the 'tins'. I used tinned sheets (electro) though not 'hot dipped' as I'd prefer. The hot dipped sheets I have are marginally too thick. There are extant pouches (not 1808s) with wooden supports below the drilled blocks; whether these were a cost-cutting exercise or a replacement of the tins for rust reasons, we'll never know.

(As an aside, When you solder using a flux, it's important to to wash it away as this eats into the metal and causes the same breakdown as rust.)

Original 1808 and earlier pouch tins;

Iain Dubh

Paul,

You are correct that the DG boxes are machine sewn, and our company QM/Artificer/Craftsman/Leather Wizard told me the the thread wasn't the strongest nor was it waxed to make it so.

The rust is not by the seams where you might expect it from remaining flux, but covering the entire surface of the "tins". I was about to post a picture of their state, but said QM/etc seems to have not only cleaned mine up during his "depot level re-build", but painted it grey so it will not rust again. (fear not, as right now this is only used as a temporary loaner for new men).

The box I carry when I set aside my Pike was made by another company up in Canada... Past Reflections... which has since gone out of business. That box, although still having some minor differences from the originals, was very well put together and has stood up to quite a few campaign seasons.

Aye,
Iain
Radford

1808 pouch reconstruction

I was not satisfied with the materials and workmanship on the DG 1808 pouch. On finding a lack of commercial sources, I decided to try my hand at making one.

I have never made a cartridge pouch before, so I took it slowly, building up a cache of research before cutting any leather. Even so, I somehow managed to completely overlook the scaled pattern from JSAHR in 1989! I worked up my pattern from the dimensions of a set of original tins that came out of Canada. The measurements were done in millimeters, but I converted and rounded them to the closest inches equivalent and came up with:

Top tray: 6 1/2 inches wide by 3 inches front to back by 2 3/4 inches deep
Bottom tray: 6 1/2 inches wide by 3 inches front to back by 1 1/2 inches deep.

I sent the measurements to a vendor named Hot Dip Tin, and in short order he sent me the tins in this photo:



I made a block that was 1/8 inch larger than the tins all around, and scaled the pattern pieces to that. I estimated the sizes of the pouch leather panels by studying the images of original pouch which have been posted to this forum in this thread and others, for which I am immensely grateful. Thank you 2/95th!

I used vegetable tanned leather for the pouch body, but on the advice of Sean Phillips I used a piece of goatskin for the implement pouch. It is slightly stretchier that veg tan leather.



The main flap is made from flesh waxed leather. This is leather that has been heavily infused with wax, I assume for its water repellent properties. It is used with the flesh side out, and is attached to the pouch body via a seam concealed under the strap on the back.



Unfortunately, the first main flap I cut out turned out to be too short.  In the year and a half it took to get a replacement cut of flesh waxed leather, I found the JSAHR pattern and also discovered that my original main flap was too narrow! I cut the new main flap to the dimensions in the JSAHR article. I assembled the pouch with natural white waxed linen thread. The torn off side panel in the Leeds pouch shows a natural linen thread, so I duplicated that.






The original examples I have seen do not show white stitching, so after assembling the pouch, I put shoe blacking on it to darken the stitching and give it a bit of a shine. I buffed it thoroughly so that blacking would not rub off on my coat. One feature that has been pointed put on this forum is how the end flaps are stitched to the main flap. The originals all seem to have a characteristic curl to them. I tried to match that.





I used one inch stamped iron buckles from Roy Najecki, and a commercially made leather button.



My first turn out in Parade Order, using the Connecting Strap.

Paul Durrant

Hey Radford,
Nice going!

Did you not fancy just ball-blacking your flap (that sounds awful!) rather than wait so long for the waxed stuff?

I'm glad you decided to stitch the small side flaps to the main flap: the Leeds, The Canadian, The Don Trioni, the Museu Militar do Bucaco in Portugal and the Brussels all suggest this feature.

For me, I don't like the Nejecki buckles (seems I'm the only one!). I find them too angular and too flat on one side.  

If I may, the one suggestion I'd make would be to taper the fastening tab on the main flap.


Keep up the good work!
Radford

1808 pouch reconstruction

Dear Paul and List-

Quote:
Nice going!


Thank you!

Quote:
Did you not fancy just ball-blacking your flap (that sounds awful!) rather than wait so long for the waxed stuff?


Properly done flesh waxed leather is an industrial process that cannot be achieved at home. I have worked with veg tanned leather that has been heavily waxed on the flesh side, and the result does not satisfy.

Quote:
I'm glad you decided to stitch the small side flaps to the main flap: the Leeds, The Canadian, The Don Trioni, the Museu Militar do Bucaco in Portugal and the Brussels all suggest this feature.  


I was inspired to by your posts on the subject. Thank you!

Quote:
If I may, the one suggestion I'd make would be to taper the fastening tab on the main flap.


The fastening tab on my reconstruction is 1 3/4 inches where it attaches to the main flap, and tapers to 1 1/2 inches at the button. The tab was missing from the pouch patterned in the JSAHR article, so there was no pattern piece to use. I looked hard at the tab from the Leeds pouch, but since it is curled up it was difficult to gauge how much of a taper there is. How wide should it be at the narrow end? Also, since this photo was taken I have elongated the hole for the button.

Greg Renault

Radford,

Good work.  Glad to see the connecting strap.  Our unit adopted these a few years ago.

Greg
Paul Durrant

Much better.
What tool do you use to close the nail holes?
Ben Townsend

Magazine tin.



From an Osprey on uniform equipment I think. Anyone seen it in person?
Paul Durrant

Urgh - certainly not the pre-1808 tin 'magazine' it purports to be. Looks more like a bloody Victorian cigar case!

Looks double-ended: a flap on both ends with an uncharacteristic clasp. Would like to see reverse. Possibly custom made?

Pic has Queens Own Highlanders as credit. Fort George?

The pre-1808 tin magazine:

Inns of Court Regt Museum, London.


NAM, London:


R. Yuill Collection:
John Waller

scaled pattern from JSAHR in 1989. Anyone got a copy? I feel a winter project coming on.
Ben Townsend



Here you go.
John Waller

Ben Townsend wrote:


Here you go.


Thanks Ben. So not a scaled pattern as such. Anyway I'll give it a go using the Turner pattern and refs from this site. I have suitable leather. Though making the tins might be a challenge with my soldering skills!

I know a nice man who I might be able to get a couple of buckles from.
Ben Townsend

Well there is an accompanying article with measurements. I suppose that would be helpful. Hang on.
Ben Townsend

Gregger

connecting strap

Does anyone have information on the short buff strap that connected the box to a button on the back of the bayonet frog?
Gregger

connecting strap

I'm speculating that the strap buttoned to the tab on the rear of the box, then to the button on the frog???

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