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Canteen
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Ben Townsend
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Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Canteen  Reply with quote

Flicking through  the CHS prints in Wellington's Army (The Uniform of the British Soldier 1812-1815), Plates by Charles Hamilton Smith, text by the Immortal Haythornthwaite (PBUH), I see that of 5 prints illustrating water canteens of the rank and file:
2 are B.O. blue barrels of the familiar type.     1813,1815 (pl.s 30, 47)
1 is a  black barrel of the familiar type.           1812,        (pl.2Smilie_PDT
1 is a large black pear shaped flask, possibly covered in leather
                                                                  1812         (pl.27)
1 is a small black pear shaped flask                1813         (pl.35)

Why do all the re-enactment units carry the blue barrel?
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two canteens from Rob Yuill Collection




Photos Copyright & Courtesy of Rob Yuill
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Greg Renault
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why do all the re-enactment units carry the blue barrel?


My impression is that the barrel style was dominant from the 1790s.  See Turner's book, and Rob Henderson,  “British Army Wooden Canteen 1793-1861”  (http://www.militaryheritage.com/canteen.htm).

Paul, those pics of originals are nice.  Last year I compiled some pics of others for a research article for my unit.  If someone can tell me how to do it, I will attach the article.
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Iain Dubh
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hullo all,
Since we have very limited options for properly sized and made canteens over here, I had to make my own from the drawings in Peirre Turner's book. It's made from quarter-sawn white oak; 7" in diameter by 4 1/4" wide. The stopper is just a temporary one, and not the fianl design. Any comments or suggestions to make it better would be appreciated. I haven't gotten around to painting it yet.
BTW, the colouring of the metal bands makes it look like they are shiny; they aren't really...
Aye,
Iain

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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Iain,

I've just come across this post and must have missed it first time round. Nice job! How did it work out in the end (once water was in)? Presuming you've been using it for the past year?

Can you come back with a photo?
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Iain Dubh
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hullo Paul... and thanks for the kind words...
There are about a dozen of them out in the field since I posted, and another six of them sitting in the basement waiting to be finished right now... so far, so good. I have made some improvements since the photos here were taken. The heads and staves are thinner, and have worked out a way to make the hoops tighter. I'll see if I can post some more recent photos tonight.
All that said, I have to admit that I cheated a bit in that I seal the insides with Brewer's Pitch. Not exactly period, I know, but I was tired of keeping water in it between events in order to keep them water-tight.
Aye,
Iain
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Iain Dubh
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, here are the later and late-EST models of the canteens...

This first one has the older style shown in a previous posting unpainted) on the right, with the newer, thinner staved and headed version on the left.


This second one gives you a little better 3/4 view


And last, here is one of the ones that is being finished as I type this; this will hopefully be the final model... until I think of some other way to improve it ;^)



If anyone has any advice to make it better, I would love to hear it...

Aye,
Iain
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Radford
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:53 am    Post subject: Flattened barrel hoops? Reply with quote

Dear Iain and List-

I deeply admire the Burns Battle Bottle, and would have ordered one had I not already received one from Sean Phillips.

I notice that on your "improved" version (as well as the unfinished one on your workbench) the barrel hoops have a "kinked" or "faceted" appearance, as though they are bent along the flats of the staves. I do not see this effect on the two originals posted earlier in the thread, or on photos I have seen of other originals. Have you seen examples of originals with this detail?
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Iain Dubh
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hullo Radford...
You bring up a good  point... I have not seen examples of the band being kinked; it was my attempt to try to get the band on as tightly as I possibly could. Looking back at the photos of originals, it looks like none of them are as tight as I thought they were... so looks like I can slack them off a bit!
Thanks for chiming in... it is always good to have someone else take a look at things from a fresh point of view.

BTW, when are you and Raef coming east for 1812? You only have a bit more than a year to hit the last of the 200ths! Email me if you can come out, and we will see what we can do about sorting you out on this end

Aye,
Iain
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http://www.the-black-watch-lha.org/1815/
1st Royal Scots, 1812
7th Bn, The Black Watch 1939-45
Burns Battle Bonnets, hand knit Kilmarnock, Hummel, and Fatigue Bonnets for the Highland Soldier
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John Waller
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iain Dubh wrote:
Hullo Radford...
You bring up a good  point... I have not seen examples of the band being kinked; it was my attempt to try to get the band on as tightly as I possibly could. Looking back at the photos of originals, it looks like none of them are as tight as I thought they were... so looks like I can slack them off a bit!
Thanks for chiming in... it is always good to have someone else take a look at things from a fresh point of view.

BTW, when are you and Raef coming east for 1812? You only have a bit more than a year to hit the last of the 200ths! Email me if you can come out, and we will see what we can do about sorting you out on this end

Aye,
Iain


I suppose the point is that the wood will swell to close with the hoop when it is wet. When dry it will be a slack fit.
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Neibelungen
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The  outside  of the  canteens are simply shaved down at the segment joints, much as the staves  on a large barrel  are.

I spoke to  a cooper about this and he gave a very simple explanation for why;
When the hoop is fitted it keeps the tension fully even over the whole surface area. Were the hoops to be on square segments the pressure would be on the outer ends of each segment giving less pressure in the centre of the segment. As the wood swells it promotes greater potential for expansion and contraction in the centre and promotes cracking in the middle of the segment.
Additionally, you want the thickness of the wood to be fairly even across the width so that all stresses are equal. A thicker end will expand and contract more than the slightly thinner centre,  bruising the wood and making the barrel ring sloppy.

For a cooper it simply adds a few extra seconds with a spokeshave to reduce the outer edges when he's making the staves.
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Iain Dubh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All,
Realizing that everytime I post something on this forum, it only makes more work for me...

q21

... I have taken the latest comments to heart and again tried some improvements.

Radford, I can not find the reference I used that allowed me to lazily leave the staves squared off rather than rounding them, but I have a feeling it was a detail taken from a good repro canteen; possibly one made by Phillips?

Neibelunger, ta for the explanation of why the staves were shaped; it makes perfect sense. I never thought any further than maybe it makes it look nicer, of possibly took some weight off barrels.

At any rate, one of my wishes to Santa this year actually was a spoke shave (for another project entirely, thank you so bull-luddy much Roy Underhill http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/home/ )... so I took a shot at rounding the edges off a few of the ones that are still "in-progress" on the bench. Here is a first result; bear in mind I am still trying to get the hang of spoke shave control issues.




Again, any comments welcome... just try to keep them to suggestions that won't cause me to do more work!
q21

Aye,
Iain
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1st Royal Scots, 1812
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Burns Battle Bonnets, hand knit Kilmarnock, Hummel, and Fatigue Bonnets for the Highland Soldier
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Paul Durrant
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big smiley faces all round, methinks.

Looks great, well done. Any chance of seeing a pic of you working it with the shave?

(BTW, How much liquid does it carry?)

Iain Dubh wrote:
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/home/

OMG! It's Si Morrison some 10 years from now!!!
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Hagman's roadie
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Durrant wrote:


Iain Dubh wrote:
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/home/

OMG! It's Si Morrison some 10 years from now!!!


Awesome workshop. It'll take me 10 years to accumulate that many tools (and skills).

Regarding spoke shaves. If it's a flat bottom rather than curved it should be easier to control on a flat face. Keep the blade set to fine. Personally I prefer drawing it towards me rather than away. I get better control that way.
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Iain Dubh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the kind words...

Paul the bottles hold about 1800 mL, which according to a web conversion is a bit over 3 Imperial Pints. The outside dimensions are still about 4" deep by about 7" in diameter.

Hagman's, Roy is into his 33 year on TV, and I have to assume he might have started a bit before then... so you might need a bit more than 10 years to catch up!

I do have a flat bladed shave, but I will try it on a finer setting. I also have to do a bit more sharpening and honing of the blade before I can expect really good results. Although all the oak is quarter-sawn, there is a bit of wave to the grain. I did not pay much attention to matching the grains on each piece while I assembled the bottles, so I will have to deal (I think) with the possibilty of having the blade catch and gouge in places... but your suggestion of fine cuts should minimize this.

Aye,
Iain


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42nd Royal Highland Regt, Napoleonics
http://www.the-black-watch-lha.org/1815/
1st Royal Scots, 1812
7th Bn, The Black Watch 1939-45
Burns Battle Bonnets, hand knit Kilmarnock, Hummel, and Fatigue Bonnets for the Highland Soldier
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